Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs Meeting, Thursday 13 February 2025

Written transcript

Please find an auto-generated written transcript of the audio recording below.

Please note that as the transcript is auto-generated, it will most likely contain some inaccuracies.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Thank you, thanks Michael. Okay, I would remind you to turn your phones off, well actually if you’re tethering to your computer I would advise you not to turn your phones off, just turn it on to silent if that’s okay. We do have quorum, Clerk, and I’m going to call the meeting to order.

I’m going to advise those in the public gallery that they are welcome to use mobile devices as long as they are in airplane mode and all devices are muted. It’s not permitted to take photographs or record any part of the meeting. I’m going to ask for declarations of interest, Members are there any new interests to declare that declared at our first meeting that are relevant to any matters under discussion this week?

Declan?

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

Yeah, thank you for that and that will be noted.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Thank you, Declan. Are there any apologies that you’re aware of, Clerk? None at this stage, okay.

Okay, agenda item two, Chairperson’s business. Members, I refer you to correspondence dated the 31st of January, pages five to six of the pack from Encirc, a glass container manufacturer and bottler headquartered in Derrylin, Fermanagh which employs over 2,000 people with 540 people employed in Derrylin alone. They state that their ambition is to almost have their scope on emissions by 2030 and reach a food net zero position by 2045.

Encirc wishes to highlight to us a new industrial fuel switching project they’re delivering in partnership with Glass Futures. The trial will take place this month in Derrylin using 100% low-grade waste derived biofuel in place of natural gas for the production of commercial container glass products. Members, as you’re aware, Encirc are already on our list of agreed potential visits and briefings that we’re aiming to get to visit the site in 2025.

Yeah, it sounds like a big window but we know how fast the clock is ticking and given this field that they’re now moving into, I think it would be, I’d like to see that sooner rather than later if Members are minded. Yeah, contented, thank you Members. Item number two, refer you to page seven of the pact to the invitation from the Right Honourable Alistair Carmichael MP, Chair of the House of Commons Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Select Committee to an online meeting between Committee Chairs and conveners to discuss inter-legislature engagement and shared policy areas.

At our meeting on the 14th of November, the Committee considered correspondence from the Right Honourable Mr Alistair Carmichael MP, highlighting that one of his priorities is to promote greater engagement with the devolved legislatures. At that meeting, we agreed to write to him to support this inter-legislature engagement. Members, have you any comments or are you content that I attend the online meeting and report back to the committee?

Yep, thank you Members. Item number three, I refer you to the report pages 8 to 43 of the pact dated the 4th of February from the Northern Ireland Rural Values Association, the Professional Association for Agricultural and Rural Valuers in Northern Ireland. The report is integral.

Initial assessment of the values and numbers of farm businesses and tax payers in Northern Ireland affected by proposed changes to agricultural property relief and business property relief from the inheritance tax. Members, NERVA provides advice to farmers, landowners and others on a range of issues, including the valuation of land and rural property for all purposes, including taxation and lending. The report provides an analysis of how the proposed inheritance tax changes will adversely and disproportionately affect Northern Ireland farmers, and that the UK Government has underestimated the number of farmers that will be affected here.

Members, the report states that analysis showed that over 48% of farms here exceed the £1 million threshold, that is over 12,500 farms, which is equivalent to 17% of the total UK farms taken over a 30-year period. That would be 420 farms in Northern Ireland potentially to be affected every year. The report also states that by meeting the tax burden, farmers will have limited opportunities for expansion and modernisation, and this will hamper the drive towards increasing sustainability and adapting to climate change.

In addition, the forced sale of assets will make some farms unviable, and there was a really useful debate this week in that space, and the Minister absolutely agreed with the motion, so it was a useful debate. Any other comments to make on that one, guys? Okay, thank you very much, Members.

Item number four. For your information, in my capacity as an MLA, I have agreed to sponsor an event at Parliament buildings in June for advancing the bio-economy in the food sector, led by the UK research and innovation agri-food for net zero network, which seeks to support policy makers in driving transformative change within the bio-economy, particularly in the food sector. This focus on innovative approaches to, one, advancing circular economy principles, two, improving access to affordable sustainable food, three, supporting farmers in adopting sustainable practices, four, reducing the carbon footprint of supply chain optimisation, five, minimising edible food waste, and it’s the first time I’ve said this word, valorising inedible food waste, and six, enhancing regional sustainability. The event will showcase these efforts with case studies, panel discussions and opportunities for stakeholder collaboration, and I have asked a number of you to co-sponsor that with me, so it should be a useful event, and I’d encourage you to keep an eye out for it. Item number five, Members, I refer you to the matter of the Waste Materials Facility Regulations for Northern Ireland 2025 that are meeting on the 12th of September, we considered, and we were content to note correspondence from DAERA regarding this consultation on draft legislation and a draft code of practice for material facility sites in Northern Ireland.

The Committee noted that the MF sites are not currently defined in Northern Ireland legislation, but our specialised plants are part of a plant that receives separants and prepares recyclable material for end markets and for further processing. The code and legislation will provide a detailed definition of what an MF is and how operators will know if the code is applicable to them. In Northern Ireland there are currently no statutory sampling requirements for MFs, unlike the rest of the UK.

The sampling is required for upcoming UK-wide reforms around enhanced producer responsibility, otherwise known as EPR, and UK parity in waste management. We then considered a written briefing on the 23rd of January regarding the departmental response to that consultation. The briefing highlighted that Northern Ireland legislation and sampling processes are behind that of England, Scotland and Wales and that aligning with their most recent changes through the code will provide UK parity.

The Committee noted that legislation is required to implement the code in Northern Ireland, specifically it is intended to amend the Waste Management Licensing Regulations Northern Ireland 2003 and the Pollution Prevention and Control Industrial Emission Regulations Northern Ireland 2013 to define the MF and face an obligation on any MF who holds a waste licence to permit to comply with the code. The Committee agreed to request an oral briefing from the departmental officials when the SL1 was received, however due to an oversight the department then omitted to submit a formal SL1 letter to the Committee before laying the SR in the business office on the 6th of February. The SR is subject to negative resolution procedure and the end of the statutory period has been calculated as the 11th of March 2025.

The Clerk has requested the submission of the appropriate SL1 letter to the committee, however this means that we are in the position of having to consider the SL1 and the SR when the SR has already been led by negative resolution. I don’t recall any Members having any specific issues with the policy when we did receive the written briefings, so I’m seeking agreement in that instance that we get an oral briefing as soon as possible on the content of the SL1 and also consider the SR at the same meeting. I will point out that this is far from ideal but the department has apologised for the oversight.

Members, any matters they want to raise in regard to this one?

[John Blair MLA]

We don’t already have a briefing on this?

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

So we had a briefing, we just haven’t had the SL1 so we’re going to get the SL1 with the SR. There are no matters raised to be fair when we first discussed it.

[John Blair MLA]

Do we need another briefing? No.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

It’s up to the Committee to request it and if the department then can or can’t do it then we’re in their hands.

[John Blair MLA]

This is the one that the stakeholders have written 7 out of 10?

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

No, this is the waste management. So this was discussed and there was no points raised.

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

This is to Chair, this is materials facilities.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Yeah, just this is one fringes in the line with Scotland and Wales in terms of compliance with the regulations so we don’t have a code of regulations with regard to the MF. So yeah, my recollection is pretty straightforward. If we’re content?

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

Yeah, we’ve just been routinely getting briefings on the SL1 so that’s why we requested that but the Committee are content.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Yeah, it’s negative resolution so there’s a chance in the Plenary too. So we can seek a briefing, the Minister will bring it forward.

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

It is already laid in the business office and the normal routine would be that we would get an SL1 and that’s where we would get our briefing Chair from the officials and then that’s when the Committee has their opportunity to comment on it and then we get the SR after that. But the SR Chair has been laid before we saw the SL1 so I think there was some confusion maybe with the Chair with just inexperienced staff in the department. That’s as far as I can get.

So I’m not getting that.

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

I’m just, I suppose it’s not particularly about that issue. I suppose it’s again just about the issue around process and the fact that the Committee isn’t being given its place and certainly not given advance notice and sufficient briefing in advance of all of these things. Therefore we’ve got confusion and it’s unfortunate obviously.

Yourself Clerk can call on that as well. So I think that message still needs to go back to the department just with regards to this.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Happy to do that.

[Thomas Buchanan MLA]

Chair, I think it’s back to the same situation that has been raised numerous times in this Committee where the character’s really been put before the horse here and really we’re getting stuff put to us but we haven’t had a chance to consult on and I think that’s where the problem is. You know the department, the Minister’s got to get that message.

They have to consult with the Committee first and then put the issues forward.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

No I absolutely don’t disagree. I mean we did look at this on the 23rd of January. Obviously we didn’t get a chance to do any further consultation and that’s a point that’s well made.

I think there’s certainly something that needs to happen in the department here in terms of shortening up in terms of giving us the time and the space to do it given that there are significantly complex pieces that we are having to turn our attention to.

[Aine Murphy MLA]

Chair, just in relation to that SL and the SR, how much time have we to work with? For example, if there was issues raised with the SL possibly to ask the department to make amendments before the SR is led, how long would that take?

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

This SR is already led.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

It’s already led.

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

There’s been an error just in the process.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

I think there’s not an actual, there’s no definitive guide as to what good practice or best practice is here. Obviously the amount of time between them is useful because if you want to do a stakeholder piece, but there’s nothing definitively written down that I’m aware of.

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

There will, Chair, the Assembly is working towards a new process and protocol with the department on these matters and I would envisage from what I’ve heard that it’ll be autumn time maybe before that’s fully in place whereby there would be a more definitive space between SL1s and SRs. But this is an error. The SR has been led.

We received a written briefing and there was confusion in that area in the department that I’m not aware of what’s happened except that it was human error or misunderstanding that we should have got a formal SL1 letter and that was our formal first opportunity.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

So we got the written briefing on the 23rd of January and the SR was led on the 6th of February so it’s not that the SR was led before we got a written briefing, we did have a written briefing, we just didn’t get the relevant space. John?

[John Blair MLA]

Yeah, Chair, can I just double check where this is in the pack?

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

No, we don’t, Chair, sorry, we don’t have, the SR is not in the pack because I just need I was seeking agreement as to how we would handle it.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

So we’ll be, we’ll be obviously, so we’ve two things to decide here. We obviously will be writing a letter to express the committee’s discomfort with the fact that it is, just don’t put it to court before the horse, and then the only other question then is are you content to take them together or not? SL1 and SR. Do we have any other choice, Chair?

[Aine Murphy MLA]

We always have a choice.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Well, I think we’re back in the position again if the Committee decided to say that they weren’t content then the Minister would have a decision to make whether he moved it or not. Would that be fair?

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

Okay, it’s already, yeah.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

It’s laid, I know it’s laid.

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

So the only thing that can happen is someone praying against it, either a Committee or a Member.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Mm-hmm.

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

Or I suppose the Minister is up.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

As I said, the Minister can, doesn’t have to move it. Any other thoughts on this one, guys? Okay, I just got to ask a question.

Okay, as I said, it’s part of my day that we will reflect that in our communication with the Are you content that we respond to the SR when the Minister moves it as per the papers, or is there any other action the Committee wants to take in this regard? William, do you indicate? I’m okay at the moment.

Okay.

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

Chair, I think probably the best option is that we do get a briefing on it and have the SR on the same day, yeah.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Okay, we’ll communicate that to the Department of the Minister. Okay, Members, thank you very much. End item three, minutes of the February meeting.

Got that, okay. February 2nd, you got it? Yes.

That’s on pages 45 to 59. Have you any comments or are you content with the minutes as drafted? If so, we’ll then sign them and they’ll be published on the website.

Yep, thank you, Members. Okay, matters arising. Prior to the response from the Department, date is 7th of February, page 61 to 64 of the pack regarding the Animal Identification Records, Movements and Enforcement Amendment Regulations Northern Ireland 2025.

Following the departmental oral briefing at our meeting on the 23rd of January, we inquired how many potential offenders were identified each year since enforcement powers ceased but were unable to be inspected in the absence of blue cars. The Department states that the number of cases referred to the Department’s Welfare Enforcement Branch, which included an allegation of livestock IRM-related infringements where investigation could not proceed, are as follows. In 2021, there were 11 cases.

In 2022, 12 cases. In 2023, 9 cases. In 2024, 11 cases.

And in 2025, 3 cases to date. Members, the Department states it is not possible to retrospectively pursue cases for enforcement. However, it is considering what action should be taken in relation to these cases.

For example, whether targeted investigations should be carried out to establish if there are any ongoing non-compliance issues. Members, the Committee also sought clarification on whether those alleged cases of IRM infringements would have been referred for cross-compliance checks. The response states that 75% of cross-compliance checks are selected on the basis of a risk matrix and the remaining 25% are at random.

The Department states it would not have been appropriate to adjust the agreed risk matrix in order to specifically target some carriage or cross-compliance inspection due to notification of possible contraventions of the IRM legislation. Nevertheless, the Department states that most of these cases have been captured for the risk-based cross-compliance checks. Are Members content with the correspondence and the answers so far?

Thank you, Members. Number two, I refer you to email correspondence dated 10 February, page 6586 of the papers. This is the chain of correspondence between AQUACULTURE-NI and a Committee Member that was agreed to be shared with all Members following the briefing from AQUACULTURE-NI at our most recent meeting.

Are there any points that you want to make that you are content to note? Thank you. Number three, I refer you to a response from the Minister dated 11 February at pages 4-6 of the papers regarding fair pricing food supply chain.

The Committee previously wrote to the Minister following consideration of correspondence from the DEFRA Minister of State and measures to improve fair pricing in the food supply chain. We considered the Minister’s response to that letter of our meeting on 30 January and wrote back to the Minister further inquiring what specific asks has the Department made for Northern Ireland in the forthcoming fair dealing regulations. What specific supply chain issues did the Minister raise at the UK Inter-Ministerial Group meeting in November?

And what actions could the Committee potentially take to proactively support the Minister in regards to ensuring these regulations meet Northern Ireland needs? Members, this response feeds into our bank of due diligence work on issues raised by Farmers for Action. To draw these matters to the committee’s conclusion, in the first instance, I propose we arrange an informal session with RAISE to discuss the information we have received from FFA, DEFRA and the Minister, so that we are clear on the likely impacts of the DEFRA proposals on the concerns that have already been raised.

Are Members content to note and follow that course of action as outlined? Thank you, Members. Item 4.

We have discussed the rural impact of the recent storm on a number of occasions, with the role of NIE, Forestry Service and Fibersol being discussed over the last number of meetings. We agreed last week that the Clerk would speak to the Clerk for the Economy Committee regarding what the Committee was doing in this regard. The Clerk to the Economy Committee understands that Fibers has met with each of the parties in recent days, and also that the response to Assembly questions AQ21377 indicates that the Department for Economy will liaise with the utility regulator and NIE Networks after NIE Networks has conducted its post-major incident review for the storm, and will respond to any learnings or requests coming from that review. The Clerk to the Economy Committee will discuss with his Chair the potential for an era economy link-up on these matters. Members, any points you want to make on that?

Are you content to note at this stage that the Clerk will liaise with the Clerk from the Economy Committee in the meantime, and then come back? I think it’s good that we allow Fibers and NIE to do that post-incident review and take their learns. Agenda item 5.

Oral briefings from the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. That is the update on the new Farm Sustainability Standards and Penalty Regime. I’m going to refer Members to pages 88 and 140 of the pack for the briefing paper from the Department.

That is the Farm Sustainability Standards and Revised Penalty Matrix. Members, the purpose of the briefing is to update the Committee on the current position of the draft Farm Sustainability Standards FSS and Revised Penalty Matrix, which has been developed as part of the Sustainable Agricultural Programme. The FSS is to replace a system of cross-compliance which has existed in Northern Ireland since 2005.

I welcome the following DAERA officials to brief the Committee on the report. We should have Dr Jason Foy, who is the Director of Area-Based Steams Division, Mr Aidan McEvoy, Head of Controls and Assurance Development Mass, Dr Elvira McAleese, Divisional Deputy Officer, and Mr Mark Hammond, Head of Natural Environment Operations at NIEA (Northern Ireland Environment Agency). And as soon as you’re comfortable, just the secondary decision, you’re comfortable, please do feel free to begin your briefing.

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

Okay, well, thank you, Mr Chairman, for the opportunity to brief the Committee this morning on Farm Sustainability Standards. In our written briefing, we’ve set out the background and nature of this policy. Our objective this morning is to brief you on the policy itself, to answer your questions and to listen to your views.

In December 2021, the Department launched a public consultation on the future agricultural policy proposals for Northern Ireland. One of the proposals within that consultation was to replace the current cross-compliance regime with a new and simplified system of Farm Sustainability Standards. The proposal was designed according to three principles.

Firstly, to undertake a managed phasing out of the statutory management requirements under cross-compliance towards our reliance on the original legislation for enforcement, except where there is a very good reason to retain the status quo. Secondly, to develop a flexible and responsive replacement for the good agricultural and environmental condition standards that meet current and emerging environmental issues. And thirdly, building in proportionality and responsiveness to the penalty system, with a much greater emphasis on securing compliance without recourse to the penalty.

80% of respondents to the consultation agreed that the current regime should be replaced with Farm Sustainability Standards. Over a number of years, there has been widespread dissatisfaction with cross-compliance. Some stakeholders view the standards as complicated, with penalties too severe.

Others view the regime as ineffective, with penalties not being severe enough. Farm Sustainability Standards form a key part of the Sustainable Agriculture Programme. They seek to advance the programme’s four strategic objectives, which are improved environmental sustainability, enhanced productivity, stronger resilience, and an effective functioning supply chain.

In developing the policy, we have returned to first principles. Farmers in receipt of public subsidies should observe a set of minimum standards. The standards seek to protect the environment, as well as public and animal health and welfare.

They encourage responsible stewardship and seek to deter damage and poor practice. The standards should be as straightforward as possible to understand and comply with. Our rule of thumb has been that a farmer taking reasonable care should have little difficulty in meeting the standards.

The current draft of the standards, together with their underpinning requirements, has been included in the written briefing provided to you. The standards are a minimum, and therefore they are not intended to be excessive or onerous. This should be business as usual for all farmers.

We propose to replace the 20 cross-compliance standards with seven farm sustainability standards, as follows. So, FSS1 is protection of waters from pollution. Standard 2, protection of habitats and biodiversity.

Standard 3, protection of landscape, archaeological and heritage features. Standard 4, the protection of soils. Standard 5, food, feed, herd and flock health and biosecurity.

Standard 6 is the welfare and protection of farmed livestock, including transport. Standard 7 is livestock identification and traceability. As this area of policy is fully devolved to Northern Ireland, there is an opportunity to move away from the current EU legacy regime and develop a system suited to the needs and circumstances of Northern Ireland.

This is a starting point. The standards can change in response to the evidence. There will be opportunities to review their operation and their impact and adjust them accordingly.

And all of this will be driven by evidence. One of the key objectives of farm sustainability standards is to protect the environment and public health and animal health and welfare. This is to be achieved by farmers understanding the reason for each of the standards and having the ability to meet them.

The policy seeks to support, enable and help farmers comply with the standards, rather than seeing financial penalty as the first and only response. This represents a significant change in approach. Whilst the draft penalty matrix has been included in the briefing, I would like to set it in a bit of context.

It’s been recognised throughout the process that penalties are not the only answer. The cross-compliance regime has a heavy emphasis on penalties and this has shown not to be effective enough. There’ll be much greater emphasis on knowledge, guidance and information for farmers in the new regime.

We wish to help farmers comply with the standards and recognise that the vast majority of farmers already do. There’s a place for financial penalties but the policy seeks to change behaviour. Part of this change in behaviour is deterrence but just as much, if not more, is about support.

We have consulted extensively with our agricultural policy stakeholder group which includes the Ulster Farmers Union, the British Veterinary Association and a range of environmental groups including Northern Ireland Environment Link. Stakeholders have welcomed the simplicity of the proposals and asked a number of questions of clarification on the standards which we have answered. The emphasis on information, advice and support for farmers was particularly welcomed by all stakeholders.

There was also a broad welcome for our objective that the penalty regime would be fairer and more proportionate. Of course, there’s a wide variety of opinions on the definition of fair. The proposed penalty matrix is simpler so we have removed the complexity of the current regime by discarding factors such as permanence, on-farm, off-farm extent and the intentional stroke negligence factor.

The matrix operates purely on the… More severe breaches attract higher penalties and there’s more proportion in the levels of severity. For first-time breaches, we have introduced the guidance letter and mandatory training course component to the penalty as we wish to prevent further breaches and help farmers avoid them occurring in the first place.

The Minister has not made final decisions on the standards or the penalty matrix and we welcome the committee’s views on the subject. So, Mr Chairman, that concludes my summary of the topics. So my colleagues and I would be happy to answer any questions.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Thank you so much and welcome to this lovely location where we are. So I’m sure you’re probably looking out the window beyond my head what’s happening outside there. So I’m sure there’ll be a lot of to and fro with the Committee today because I know there’s keen interest in regard to this policy.

We have had a considerable amount of discussion in recent weeks about cross-compliance and I don’t think that any Committee Member would disagree with the overall policy objective of making any new penalty system effective and fair with a greater emphasis on securing compliance rather than the application of penalties. That’s certainly good that you’ve set that out early. I’m going to ask probably what sounds a bit like a dark question but I don’t think it’s dark.

I’d be grateful for the record if you could explain why regulations we recently prayed against in the Assembly on cross-compliance were needed given this new system that’s being proposed now.

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

That was a decision taken by the Minister who was quite clear with us in his instructions to us that he wanted those changes reversed and was fully aware that we had intended to replace the system of cross-compliance from 2026 in any case.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Okay, so there’s no operational rationale for it really. It’s just it was seeking to amend what was the existing one in advance of this happening anyway so the time difference I’m trying to establish here probably wouldn’t be great. It wouldn’t be significant.

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

The change that the Minister proposed would if farm sustainability standards had been adopted in 2026 they would have only been in operation for one year.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Yeah, okay. Okay, thank you. Thank you for that.

I see that the paper is referred to concerns that have been made by the APSG being taken into so in terms of the broader context for deterrence without disproportionate impact and that’s where many of the Committee Members have expressed concerns in discussion about this. Please go over the main concerns that were expressed by the APSG and we have received a letter from them that the stakeholders they are content by the way but you don’t have to necessarily drill down detail above any significant concerns that that group identified and any that are maybe outstanding.

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

Well there are questions of clarification around what some of the standards wording and some of the standards meant at quite a technical detail level so we have answered those. The main concerns I think expressed by different partners in APSG was around how we would arrive at a system of penalty with the balances right across the different levels of severity and also when we’re bearing in mind that foreign businesses receive very different levels of payment from the department so it’s a question of fairness in terms of and honestly held views and made very cogently by Members of APSG around is it fair for example for farmers receiving committing the same breach of the standards to receive in financial terms very different penalties but that is on the basis of the fact that those foreign businesses receive different levels of payment to begin with so you could express this the penalties as a percentage of the payment or as a fixed rate for a breach but then you have a disproportionate impact on small farmers than if you have a fixed monetary level so there are like I say Chair there are good faith arguments to be made on either side of this and we certainly heard a lot of that from APSG but I think we came to a reasonable consensus that we’re trying to apply a system that retains public confidence but also does account for the fact that farmers do receive very different levels of payment from the department

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

no problem it does the the matrix does it looks still quite complicated to me but I do accept that it’s the rationale is perhaps a more fairer look at the proportionality of it there’s an operational one if you don’t mind me just looking into so in and around the farmers must ensure that all organic matter and livestock manure stores etc are managed and constructed well one of the points is farmers must ensure that total livestock storage and farm is sufficient for at least 22 weeks and 26 weeks for pigs and poultry but there’s also a restriction in the height that you can stack bales up to two that’s a change in terms of you can only stack the two I think in terms of the bales for side agents and so on but if they’re being asked to store more is that an operational proposed an operational difficulty for particularly small farms

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

I’ll bring in one of my colleagues to comment on that question

[Unidentified colleague of Mr Foy]

it’s certainly something you know if there’s concerns about real lookup at the minute we are we haven’t fixed what is set the standards that we’re developing aren’t set in stone we’re actually in the process of looking at them and considering any issues that are that are risen so certainly I can take that back and we can certainly have a look at that issue to make sure that it’s fully considered and addressed whenever we’re going to present the final standards

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

it’s very simplistic but it’s something I know particularly where I am I know because I would visit some of the farms and I know how they stack and I know the limitations that they have and it would be you know things like that would certainly seem to be unfair I’ve got one final one and then I have Declan, William, Michelle and John so far and that’s anything indicated my last one then is it is good that the operation of the standards and penalty makes will be monitored and reviewed and can be done good after sufficient data has been gathered how long after the implementation will a review be conducted and will the detail of the review be included in the regulation

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

that still has to be decided in terms of whether we would put in regulation a mandate for a review the farm sustainability standards like cross compliance would operate on an annual cycle so we would have an initial review after the first year of operation and establish whether there are any improvements or changes that we need to make as a result of our findings in the first year of control and inspection okay thank you so much okay Declan

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

thank you Chair and thanks very much for your presentation in terms of the matrix obviously we’ve been provided information on the 2021-22-23 as an annex to give our pack but obviously we haven’t seen the new system that you’re using and it’s very difficult for and I welcome the fact that we are saying that the new system will be fairer and more proportionate but it’s very difficult for us as a Committee to assess that when we haven’t seen it

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

yeah at the moment we are undertaking work to establish across all of the standards which you know which breaches would constitute a low severity a medium severity a high severity etc so there’s a bit of work to be done to fully complete that exercise and it is it’s quite difficult to compare the current cross-compliance penalty regime to what we’re proposing because they are quite different we have removed as I said earlier the factor around intentionality and negligence which does make a big difference to penalties currently as the Committee have discussed before so it’s quite difficult to then translate leg for leg breaches across the two different matrices but in general terms we have taken steps to ensure that the penalties are in terms of how they’re going to be applied are more proportionate across the different standards with less if you might want to call them cliff events where someone will go over a certain threshold automatically the penalty is ramped up significantly we’re going to try and smooth that out through the matrix as much as we possibly can

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

thank you Chair just secondly and many of us around the table will have received representation from farmers for who have maybe made a minor mistake in terms of ticking their own box on an application form or something like that there and they’ve been they’ve been forced into an appeals process when very clearly it was administrative error or a minor error on their part within any more any proportionate or fair system whereby those situations are very clearly and demonstrably a desk-based human error that they can be addressed before farmers are forced down the road of having to go into a lengthy appeals process

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

those types of errors resulting in penalty generally are not due to cross compliance or farm sustainability size they’re scheme rules which are quite different and absolutely my staff do look at cases of that nature day and daily and there are cases that are definitely resolved without having to go through the appeals process where we do see that there is an obvious error that has been made and there are certain provisions in regulation that allow us to to do that but it’s important for us that even with that with our best efforts in that regard it’s important for farmers still to have that avenue of redress if they’re still not satisfied but that generally doesn’t happen with cross compliance and farm sustainability standard issues

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

and they see in terms of enforcing the new proposed regime obviously one of the issues that we prayed against just recently in the assembly was around the enforcement regime and there wasn’t differentiation between what would be considered to be minor breaches and more serious breaches how would the issue of say capital ear tags was referenced how would this new regime be enforced for example around ear tags

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

the level of enforcement in terms of inspection would be quite similar to what we currently have however the way the penalties would work in such circumstances would be quite different so the issue that the Committee discussed before and the prayer of annulment in the assembly was around not minor breaches but negligent breaches then becoming automatically intentional there’s no such thing as automatic as intentional or negligent in this proposal it is purely about the impact so in cases such as ear tags for example we’re looking at that at the moment but in general terms the more for example the more ear tags that are missing the more severe that breach is so there wouldn’t be a cliff event if you like where if there’s only a few missing it’s automatically goes into a higher level of penalty we’re trying to make that much more proportionate and that’s why we’ve introduced five levels of severity instead of the current four to be able to try and make that differentiation a bit more meaningful and a bit more proportionate for farmers

[William Irwin MLA]

thank you definitely William thank you Mr Chairman thank you for your presentation I have some concerns I do see I think it’s good that there’s farm sustainability standards I think it’s important that there is standards and I think people should be held to account if they behave wrongly but in the old scheme I’ve seen in situations where people for instance if you buy cattle out of a market today the apartment that you’ve heard if you have to confirm those within seven days some people missed out maybe eight or nine today before they realised it wasn’t a serious offence but this happened a few times successive years meant that there was massive penalties for those farmers for very small breaches and breaches that in effect had no impact right we now have a situation where a hundred percent penalty high for some gravity you’ll be excluded from the next scheme year that’s a proposal that’s 200 percent penalty plus you’re excluded from the basis for the voting scheme the next year as I read it here that’s a 200 percent penalty not a 100 percent penalty

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

that would be on the basis that you that that farm business has breached to a very high level on multiple occasions and this would be reserved for the for the worst cases of breaches

[William Irwin MLA]

and it’s not it’s not clear what the multiple occasions mean it’s not clear who makes that decision if you brought to court the law a judge makes a decision who makes a decision whether this is very high or not

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

the department the department as a competent control authority the number of occasions of the breach again as we said in the brief in the written briefing is over a three-year period as it currently operates so to be to get into that situation a farm business would have to have had a very high breach on then three occasions in succession within two years very high level of severity I’ll ask my colleague Dr McAleese to come in but I don’t envisage that we would have late cattle registrations

[William Irwin MLA]

well I have seen the past I’ve seen them situations happening and that’s why I’d be concerned

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

yes and that’s what we’re seeking to try and address is exactly that point is to try and avoid that our emphasis again on guidance and support for farmers that you know which we want to try and change culture around this would be the provision of advice and information to farmers to avoid those situations occurring so if it’s late cattle registration and there’s a delay in post for example there are alternatives open to farm businesses to avoid that entirely by registering their cattle online or using our telephone service which negates reliance on post for example for cattle registration work if you want anything to add

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)5]

yeah with regards to the traceability the barn impact the impact that the actual breach has has created so in the likes of late registrations we don’t envisage that because the impact rate is very high between age and age so that’s all looked into that because there are very low breaches ultimately continuing that or not getting into that 100% penalty scenario but it is included in the breaches all right

[William Irwin MLA]

yeah I also read that there’s a minimum penalty even for low breaches

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

there’s a minimum there’s a financial level of minimum penalty and this is born of the fact that there are there’s quite a vast difference in the level of payments that farm businesses receive from the department so for example taking a very low breach and a 1% penalty that we even have currently under cross-compliance can result in farm for farm businesses receiving penalties of less than 20 pounds or less than 10 pounds which I think is ineffective so we are trying to account for those farm businesses for the penalties being a sufficient deterrent for farm businesses that happen to receive quite small payments and a small percentage of a small payment will lead to what some may see as a derisory level of penalty so we’re trying to balance both of those factors

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

contently thank you thank you Ciarán

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

and thank you very much for coming to speak with us today can I just ask is this a final paper or is this still policy and development

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

it’s still policy and development the Minister will be making final decisions later on but we did want to have the opportunity to brief the Committee on the proposals so far and be able to listen to your views on it

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

okay and this was a simple question really on the back of the question from the Chair obviously we did have quite a heated debate in relation to cross compliance and in the chamber and I’m just I don’t know whether I’m worried or concerned but I suppose I’m conscious that there may be lessons that perhaps should have been learned through that process and whether they will be applied to this just with regards

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

they absolutely are in the sense that the issue that the Committee and the assembly were concerned about around this automatic movement from one part of a penalty matrix to another we have effectively designed out of this regime and that there is no such thing as intentional or negligent in this matrix that we’re proposing is purely around the severity of the breach itself so we avoid situations where what might be seen as minor breaches suddenly becoming intentional and attracting a much higher penalty than they would otherwise do that shouldn’t happen in this case because we’ve simplified the matrix

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

okay and yet it says here in the new regime breaches and the associated penalties will be considered at individual farm sustainability standard level and not at environmental welfare or veterinary levels this will have the effect of increasing the overall financial impact on farm businesses with multiple breaches and obviously it removes provision where a farm business can effectively breach standards within one group and not incur an additional financial penalty

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

so yes that would be in the case whether a farm business breaches multiple standards at the same time

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

at the same time yes okay now you also referenced at the beginning that the consultation in two paced in December 2021 and 80 percent of respondents wanted a simplified system and I appreciate that and I understand that will what’s being proposed here go for consultation as well

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

we’re not planning on another consultation because we have had a significant level of consultation with the agri policy stakeholder group and we have heard a lot of opinion and views there which we think are sufficient to be able to progress the policy

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

and I appreciate that and we’ve heard a lot about this group in the last couple of weeks but would it not be given the fact that you know normally what would happen if we have a significant change in policy that we go out for public consultation that this wouldn’t

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

well we believe that we’ve consulted on quite a lot of it already but again I do take the point and it’s something we can take a look and consider

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

I mean I think my preference obviously would be that it would have a full consultation that aside there’s also the issue around standards and there’s the NAP review which has long been in the mix can we get an idea as to when that consultation will take place and whether that will have an impact on the standards which are set

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

I believe the NAP review is due to be consulted upon later in the spring but you may wish to approach the department more centrally about that and the review of the NAP regulations could well have a an impact on the standards as in as you know any reviews of policy or legislation in the future could and the standards can then be adjusted as required whether that’s in 2026 or later on as this is a fully devolved matter the department and under Ministerial control can adjust these standards in light of emerging needs I would I’d be surprised if the review did not change the standards although that process has to take its course and then the standards can be adjusted according to what those final policy decisions are

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

okay and just finally it’s one

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

I think on that point wasn’t it

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

you wanted

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)6]

I just want to say that the standards that they’re developed as they are and taken into consideration you know if this is a projection 2006 they may be as they are but if there’s issues coming out of the NAP review then the following year the standards be amended for the 2027 scheme here

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

yes these will operate on an annual cycle so we will would never change the mid-year so that farmers would have plenty of notice and opportunity to make whatever adjustments or changes they may need to make and result as a result of the NAP review or any other change in standards

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

and just finally can I just ask about an appeal process

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

the review of decision process would continue to operate under schemes that have the pharmacy standards applied to them as it currently does that will continue as normal

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

okay thank you

[John Blair MLA]

thank you so much thank you John Chair thank you Chair moving us away if I may from our regular financial focus and the penalty regime attention and mindful that reflecting on earlier comments that one year in the absence of a decision to increase or maintain higher penalties can cause a lot of damage and if anybody needs any proof of that I’m happy to take them to some of the rivers around South Antrim and show them where complete devastation has been created in the space of an hour or two by non-compliance and deliberate pollution can I ask this question looking at the new sustainability standards around environmental protection and animal welfare and biosecurity if there is hope that there will be better that there will be better outcomes from what is envisaged here and I for one hope that there will be on what is that hope based what what’s the the foundation of the hope for better outcomes assuming that this is intended to lead to better outcome

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

the foundation would be that we see in terms of our inspections referrals made to us that we see fewer breaches this is geared towards this policy is geared towards seeking to prevent breaches in the first place we can penalise farmers as we have done for the last 20 years and I know some Committee Members have expressed the view that that hasn’t been terribly effective the key for us is actually seeing an outcome on environmental or public health around animal welfare improvement in there and that for us is reflected initially in fewer breaches being detected on the basis that we’re able to provide more information and support to farmers to help them comply in the first place

[John Blair MLA]

okay and will there be an analysis done then that the checks have not reduced in the context of seeing fewer breaches but I want everybody to think that there are fewer checks yes so we’ll be able to show that the checks have at the very least been maintained or increased yes and that breaches of those and repeated breaches especially repeated breaches of those have been reduced at the same time yes that’s okay

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

is that okay John yeah yeah okay thank you patty yeah

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

uh thanks very much maybe just picking up on that can I ask just how many because those have been awful some of those I’m involved with a number of people in the valendary river around the valendary river enhancement scheme those pollution incidents how many uh breaches or penalties I should say have been invoked by the department on foot of those breaches and say the last I don’t know five years

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

uh I wouldn’t have figures to hand just for that specific area but maybe across Northern Ireland

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

I will suppose that applies

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

to all other courses yeah uh well four um breaches in uh 2023 the most recent year we’ve had uh we have figures available I think we have detected 277 breaches of the current uh standard on water potential waters uh from pollution 277 in 2023 were detected and that’s across Northern Ireland

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

so we don’t have a figure to hand just for those are breaches that subsequently will follow down with penalties yes all right okay that’s grand maybe we could have the previous figures that’ll be helpful for previous years if you have them

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

the equivalent for 2022 was 189 and for 2021 183

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

all right okay does that reflect better detection by NIEA or

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

ask my colleague in NIEA to comment on that

[Mr Mark Hammond Northern Ireland Environment Agency)]

yeah I think um I think the detection rates in the um water side of things are are quite good they’re quite high um there was probably a dip whenever inspections weren’t taking place as much as covid so in the figures that have been presented there is a bit of a dip but that’s because of the covid and the inspections were impacted in those two years so then subsequently years after that have obviously increased inspections and increased the number of breaches that have been identified

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

and those breaches of those many of them have wound up with convictions I think each year uh

[Mr Mark Hammond Northern Ireland Environment Agency)]

approximately um between 6 and 12 are usually brought forward to um so that’s over the last from 2019 to 2023 it’s ranged from six cases being brought to 12 cases Mr Brown thank you for that

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

now if I could just come back then to um what we’re proposing here today you mentioned there just earlier Jason that there was extensive consultation and um you mentioned that there was a particular response between yourselves and dialogue with with the constatees could you maybe just um outline for me what was the major issue we’ll call it contention or lack of agreement or what do we want to call it that still remains outstanding

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

I think there um is there probably still is a difference of views amongst stakeholders as to whether the penalty regime that we’re proposing is fair and there were questions more than differences between the standards and I think um most if not all of our constatees were happy enough with the standards themselves in the sense that they could understand what they were getting at they could understand some of the detail that’s up behind them the issue that we’re probably left with is just a different a variety of opinions as to what constitutes fairness in the penalty regime

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

then what about what about the other issue of the the NHS action program review and how penalties first seems to be well anyway I’m sure you’re aware of the concern that’s been expressed yourself right that the doctorate hasn’t concluded yet and therefore how can you sequentially determine what the government put out this year and that how can you sequentially determine what breach or penalty rate consequences be as a result of that

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

as as we’ve said before the um standards as they sit today would uh we would propose uh would um take effect from 2026 if the NAP review then changes those standards going through whatever the consultation process that it’s going through the standards will be revised and then implemented from 2027

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

and I don’t expect you to know the answer to this but um have any of you and your colleagues made that determination about what the policy

[INAUDIBLE DUE TO MOBILE INTERFERENCE]

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

it might be helpful if you get clarification on that Chair

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

just in case I think I’d like to question the Minister but certainly for the Committee happy to also

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)7]

raise that

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

thanks very much for your time thank you thomas

[Thomas Buchanan MLA]

thank you Chair firstly with regards to software design and hardware procurement you have said that this needs to be in place to allow the all this and all to be done by january 2026 where are you with that what’s the cost going to be what mitigation measures have you put in place should there be any hiccups with this we’ve seen this before in the past whenever new software has been put in place so maybe you could elaborate something on that

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

sure well there the software development and design is already underway and even if aspects of the policy still need to be determined it doesn’t prevent us from starting at least on the basics in terms of the software replacement for the systems that we have around inspection around the movement of data around the department we can start we have started on the foundational work with that there is a a challenging timetable for us without doubt but we’re and we’re working through some of the costing information at the moment so I don’t have a figure that I can give you today in terms of what the cost is going to be it depends what the final policy looks like but at the moment we are planning on the basis that we will be ready for this in 2026 and we’re taking a number of steps within the programs we have delivering this to make that happen

[Thomas Buchanan MLA]

and are you tying in any mitigating measures should there any hiccups arise in this new program so then that the farmer’s not the person that’s going to be penalised if something goes wrong

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

no I can assure you that if there are any difficulties in delivery on our side that is not that should not be and will not be you know farmer will not suffer any detriment for that equally we will ensure that we are operating the system and processes that underpin it as efficiently as we can so we’re trying to do this in an efficient and effective way for farmers too so we will continue to operate the inspection regime on a sample basis that will continue to be a mixture of risk and random base selections and we review that annually as we have done over the last few years

[Thomas Buchanan MLA]

okay thank you for that you then did talk about first-time breaches and introducing

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

our intention is that that we’re exploring options to deliver that training to farmers online if it’s convenient that would be our preference and probably the preference for most farmers but we understand that there are maybe issues where face-to-face may be may be more appropriate really what we’re trying to do with that is avoid farmers making the same breaches year on year receiving escalating penalties year on year because that’s only ever going to lead to one outcome and it doesn’t fix the problem and what we’re trying to do with this is help the farmer fix that

[Thomas Buchanan MLA]

one other issue Chair when we look at penalties we look back over the years on penalties it’s normally the farmer who’s doing their very best to comply with regulations and as Jacqueline said earlier maybe they pick a wrong box or whatever and they face the full force of the penalty that’s coming down on them they lose out in single farm payments and percentages of it and so forth but then you do then have the rogue farmer there’s not many in but there’s some about and you saw in the group you know that there’s rogue farmers about so what is going to be done going forward to ensure that penalties are applied equally and fairly to everyone and to every farmer across the board and it’s not really the farmer that’s seeking to comply all the time that’s getting a penalty fixed on them while the other rogue farmer if you want to put it gets away with it and that and the penalty is not put to them so what’s what’s going to be done going forward to address this particular issue?

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

The penalty matrix will be applied uniformly wherever we find breaches of those of those standards again we as I said earlier we do look at our level best to help farmers comply with the standards but if a farmer does not they’re at higher risk of being a much higher risk of being inspected in the future and if the breach continues they will escalate through the penalty regime with the penalty doubling each year if there are very severe breaches of the standards sufficient to warrant prosecution that’s also a tool open to us for those cases

[Thomas Buchanan MLA]

as opposed to the difficulty with that on a number of cases is the fact that it’s getting evidence sent to the court and I mean we’ve seen it before where the department has failed in this

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

yes and certainly part of the intention that we have around our hardware and software procurement is geared towards better evidence gathering at the point of inspection so acknowledge that there have been cases in the past where courts have found that hasn’t been of a sufficient standard we want to try and address that through the way that we will conduct inspections in the future to ensure that we capture evidence at the point of inspection whilst it’s there

[Thomas Buchanan MLA]

yes just to ensure that the farmer that’s living by the book seeking to meet all the criteria and regulations that’s laid down that they are not being continually penalised when these other people get involved yeah

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

and that is I do take the point and we have heard that over a number of years and certainly I want to assure the Committee we’re doing our level best within the resources that we have to be able to try and deal with that

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

thank you thank you Thomas onion

[Aine Murphy MLA]

thank you Chair thank you Jason for your presentation just a quick supplementary off the back of Tom’s query in and around hardware procurement would there be any way at the minute in I suppose retrofitting the existing software systems that are in place rather than going down the road of procuring new hardware

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

the software systems that we have are approaching end of life they’re operating on quite old technology now so we do want to be able to make an investment that will save us through the next number of years using better technology with more robust hardware so we are in a position where whether we have this change in policy or not we’re going to have to replace the hardware and software

[Aine Murphy MLA]

and I know that you had set out that that would be taking place over the next number of months regardless of what happens with this is there any indicative times in around tendering yet or just to suppose how advanced are those conversations

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

not yet I expect our procurement will be limited to hardware the software is designed within departments we’ve got a bit of resilience around that in terms of we have developers looking at this right now

[Aine Murphy MLA]

and I suppose even drawing comparisons with the new NIFA system I think that was the issue for the department at the time where they had to go out of house for both software and hardware but look thank you very much for that Jason just in relation to the farm sustainability standards draft copy in annex B it states and I suppose it’s more of a technical point and the farmers will have to comply with DfC (Department for Communities) legislation under the protection of landscape archaeological and heritage features how would DfC or suppose how in terms of enforcement powers how would DfC go about enforcing I suppose any breaches or identifying any breaches in that regard

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

we would if we were to detect breaches and with DfC it’s really around scheduled monuments that happen to be in farmland so if we were to detect a breach where there’s been damage or destruction of such a monument we would notify DFC

[Aine Murphy MLA]

and then I’m assuming at that stage the ball would be in DFC’s court

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

well we yes as far as prosecution is concerned I believe yes but we would we would if it’s appropriate and it breaches our standards we would apply a penalty

[Aine Murphy MLA]

so in that case Jason keep me right here there would be two there could be a possibility of two only one penalty in that case are two penalties one from DfC one from DAERA

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

there’d be a penalty from DAERA but there could be a prosecution by DfC depending on the on the nature of the case as there would be in certain water pollution incidents where we would apply the the current cross-compliance penalty but prosecute through the courts where there may be a fine as well so it’s no it’s no different

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)7]

thank you

[Unidentified Committee Member]

thank you Jim

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

thank you just before at the minute at the end I’m wondering William if he’s going to wrap it up but I have just a couple quickfire questions if you don’t mind these are more in relation to the concern that’s been shared on the Committee in terms of vacancies in the department and the ability to retain knowledgeable senior responsible owners for a project of this scale are you content with the team that you have up there you have a requisite amount in your team to deliver this on time at case and also with that level of knowledge and relationship too because I know that there’s a churn right across all of the departments it’s not unique to you you’re right

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

yeah yes yes I am we have been prioritising this work certainly within my own division so I have a team dedicated to this and I’m content with our arrangements there we’re not invulnerable from change but as we said at the moment I think we have enough we have the people to do the job

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

okay now listen I have a few other questions I’ll put them up when I use them now because at least this is an early briefing and I do appreciate it William you just one point you wanted to make I think

[William Irwin MLA]

yeah and Tom you touched on that I was just going to say Jason said earlier that they wanted to have farmers meet farm sustainability standards and I asked them but then I think it’s important that even inspectors who they call on the farm that they can give advice to farms that they just don’t go out knowing a lot of farmers but they give them can give in my situation shouldn’t give them advice how to stop that yeah I think Mr Blair talked about deliberate delivers none of us have anything to deliberate delivers agreed

[John Blair MLA]

yeah agreed

[William Irwin MLA]

none of us have anything to that but there are there will be those farms that you want to put dirty water run off or something I think it’s important that advice is given to farmers how do you propose to do that in a meaningful way

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

well that’s something we’re going to work through in more detail with colleagues in NIA and and others but I think in general terms what we want to see is where a breach is detected even if that results in in a penalty we still need to be able to point out and communicate clearly with the farmer at the point of inspection or in a subsequent letter precisely what the problem is and advising the farmer on how they can be able to do that right we for us it was reflected on a question I asked earlier around the success of this I’d be particularly interested to see and keen to see fewer repeat breaches as well where we have we are able to show that yeah there has been a breach penalty applied but the farmer has with our advice and support been able to put it right

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

okay thank you thank you that’ll be part of it I can figure if I can get a that letter from the speaking people through the post to say do you want to do it not that I have one or two or three but do you want to do the course or do you want the you want the points do the course so that’s that’s really useful thank you Members content then to move on yep okay thank you very much agenda item six is farm sustainability payment performance amendment regulations sorry

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

it’s just really it wasn’t a question it was really just a follow-up really from the Committee as to whether or not we would actually have any briefings from the likes of the UEFA with regards to the impact of the proposed scheme

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

yeah yeah no good point Members there is a bit of there’s it’s not that we don’t have a lot of time on this but we do have a window here in terms of what our role will be to support the Minister the department in terms of ensuring that what comes through in 2026 meets the needs of all the stakeholders here so are you content that we return to this and open up the discussion about getting stakeholder constant moving into speaking to stakeholders and that type of thing particularly in regard to the stuff that still has to be drawn up I think the question that I raised about the space that’s available for stacking and on small farms and that type of stuff to inform rather than critique because the consultation you’re not opening up for consultation wider than where you’ve got to at this stage isn’t that right so this is about assisting and exposing the space of the the policy development regulation you’re content Members content any objections

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

we could develop we could have space for more discussion on this maybe next week

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

we can put it into the forward work plan as a matter of discussion and then we can get the points on that as to what you want to do with it it was just

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

it’s just fairly straightforward in having a briefing session from the stakeholders just so that we can get a sense of what this is going to be like from those who are actually going to then be affected directly

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Members content to use the list that we had previously yeah I think it’s very true

[John Blair MLA]

I hope there’s no frustration that I might want to go wider than one body yeah I mean it would be almost inconceivable if that frustration isn’t going to and if I heard the proposal right Chair and I’m going by your words here I need to be clear not anybody else’s and I couldn’t hear every word that was said can I ask for clarification around with whom we will be consulting if there’s going to be further consultation

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

my own preference would be to consult as wide as the department can do if that’s if Members are content with that I don’t think we can refer to find out any further or not

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

I mean I’m happy that others are obviously can brought up and just have a discussion in relation to it I just don’t I just don’t feel it’s maybe necessary for us to have the APSG as a body in its own right because that’s obviously the group that’s being discussed at the department meeting with and they recognise that group I am I suppose more concerned about meetings with individual groups to get their particular view

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

have you any any wider than the group that’s been identified do you mean if there’s anybody in particular

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

well no but what I’m just all I’m saying is that we speak to the groups individually as opposed to this

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

oh no no that’s the point I was getting and to be fair that’s what we did obviously we wrote we contacted them individually to ask them for their position in this and that’s and the other on the other which is it’s kind of tied to the same it’s the same piece of work albeit one’s payment and one’s regulation that’s the same it’s the same methodology we took with previously is that okay yeah okay thank you thank you guys

[John Blair MLA]

or we could just simply request a briefing from the agri sector and one from the environmental sector which might be in there

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

I mean I would personally I think those have been consulted you know as per the as we ruled out last two weeks ago they’re already been identified and it means that nobody can come back to the Committee and say that they weren’t given the opportunity again would that be better rather than someone come back and critiquing us and they can turn it down they can they can say that they’re content with the thing how they’ve been represented by the stakeholder group is that okay thank you guys okay is that item six thank you is the SL1 the farm sustainability payment to farmers amendment regulations 2025 refer Members to pages 10-16 of the table papers for the SL1 as briefing papers from the department on the farm sustainability payments to farmers amendment regulations 2025 you need a cushion that’s agenda item six in the pact and it’s entitled the direct payment to farmers amendment regulations 2025 however the title of the statutory rule has since been changed Members the department now intends to make a statutory rule under powers conferred on it by sections 48-53a and paragraphs 5 of schedule 6 of the agriculture act 2020 the proposed SR is to make a number of minor legislative amendments the closing date for the transfer of payment entitlements removing the methodology as prescribed by the EU to assess the robustness of the land party identification system and those listed as a competent and controlled authority for cross-compliance has been updated to reflect that DAERA now undertakes this role the SR will be laid before the assembly under the negative resolution procedure and subject to executive approval it’s anticipated it will come into operation on March the 6th 2025 so thank you Jason for staying with us and we also have is Aubrey Henderson grade 7 area-based schemes operation policy branch at DAERA so if you would like to give us your briefing

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

thank you Mr Chairman for the opportunity to brief the Committee this morning on these regulations which as you said are made under the negative resolution procedure the regulations make three minor technical changes firstly regulation 2 simplifies the existing regulations concerning the quality assessment framework which we apply to our land parcel identification system so this is the mapping system that we use to determine which fields are being claimed for payment the field boundaries and the eligible areas within each field the current regulations contain as a legacy from the EU contain a lot of very specific detail on how this assessment must be carried out this no longer fits with our current schemes and our reformed eligibility rules and therefore we intend to simplify the requirements whilst retaining the overall requirement to annually assess the accuracy of our mapping system secondly then regulations 3 and 5 brings about the same amendment to transfer responsibility as competent patrol authority from the former department of the environment and the health and safety executive to the department of agriculture environment and rural affairs this brings the regulations up to date with existing practice thirdly then regulation 4 extends the deadline for applications to transfer payment entitlements from the 2nd of May to the 15th of May to align it with the deadline for single applications although we did not undertake a formal consultation on this change we have discussed it with the Ulster Farmers Union and the Agricultural Consultants Association and both organisations are fully in favour of this change just like to apologise to the Committee for some drafting issues in the statutory rule which have been corrected for the final version to be made these relate to the dates inserted for validation purposes and one word which was omitted incorrectly it doesn’t change the meaning of the regulations or the amendments in any way so those are the in summary those are the three minor technical changes to the regulations that bring them into line with current and future policy and Audrey and I would be happy to answer any questions the Committee might have thank you Jason thank you so much

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

just got one question the briefing does state that removing the methodology to assess the robustness of the land parcel identification system will enable DAERA to adopt a more meaningful methodology to reflect the delivery of the new scheme is that methodology currently under development and if so is there anything more you can tell us about it?

Yeah

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

yeah the our intention is from 2026 then to make all agricultural land eligible for payment except for hard features the methodology as prescribed in current regulation doesn’t fit with that so it requires us to identify and measure ineligible vegetation which won’t be ineligible in the future so we’re changing the regulation to align it with a simpler set of rules around land eligibility and that’s what that regulation does but as I said Chair it does still require us to undertake that annual assessment of the accuracy of the system. Okay thank you, thank you. Declan?

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

Thank you Jason an open welcome the fact that the industry has welcomed the extending of the transfer the transfer window just sort of out of out of curiosity from the department’s point of view will you see if transfers come in very close to the 15th will the department be able to turn that around in time so that farmers aren’t paying an ice for late submission of their single application forms?

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

Yes the transfer of entitlements and the single applications are separate so there is no penalty for late applications for transfer of entitlements they just can’t be accepted in law after the date but for the last number of years we have had an online transfer system which has accounted for at least 97 percent of all transaction volumes going through the department and those are done very simply by farmers or auctioneers and agents and that can be that system is available and will be available right up to midnight on the 15th.

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

So say if a farmer wanted to activate those entitlements in the same year as they transferred will that be still yes even if it’s very close to that then?

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

Yes they will.

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

I reMember I think in the past the Olympus had around 750,000 land parcels across the north what is is that still?

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

Yes yes it is.

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

750,000 land parcels?

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

Yes around well as far as what is claimed for payment is around 936,000 hectares but we have other land parcels in there as well to make sure that we’re not and we’re preventing farmers claiming land that isn’t in agricultural use so there is probably around a million hectares all told in the system.

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

No problem, thank you Jason. Thank you Chair.

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

Thank you.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Patsy?

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

Thanks very much. How is that done? Is there satellite involvement with that? And the second part of that is do you liaise then with the LPS as well around land ownership?

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

No we don’t on land ownership because land is not a requirement of our schemes for land to be owned so who owns the land isn’t really a factor for us. We do work quite closely with LPS around the mapping technology that we use and they gather the orthophotography for us so we refresh the LPS a third of Northern Ireland every year just with a sophisticated digital camera on an airplane. We also supplement that with satellite photography as well and so what we do with the quality assessment is take a sample of fields and check them to see how they’re accurate and there’s a sophisticated piece of software that we use to do that assessment.

It is formed for us by AFPI so the department we’re not marking our homework but we do require a bit of technical expertise which AFPI have to enable them to do the assessment. Okay thank you Boris and give us a result back each year.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Thank you very much. Good question.

[William Irwin MLA]

Thank you Mr Chairman. In a recent meeting we were informed that possibly a large number maybe 4,000 redeemed is inactive. Farms they will have to sell their entitlements or renew their entitlements before the 2016 year.

I have concerns that those people this new land coming in of course but it could be different for those people to sell their entitlements in time. For transfer of entitlements they have a very short window to do it.

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

Well they have the opportunity at quite an early stage to transfer their entitlements if they wish like any other farm business. What we’re doing is extending that a further two weeks but we for example this year we’re going to launch the single application and the entitlement transfer service together on Monday the 3rd of March as our intention so the farmers do have 10 weeks or so to make those transfer applications online but arrangements can be made through auctioneers significantly in advance of that. This is just the facility to put through the transaction.

They can have arrangements made through auctioneers or agents to transfer their entitlements long before that and our intention is to write out to those businesses as early as we can to afford them the maximum amount of time available to be able to make whatever arrangements they see fit as a farm business.

[William Irwin MLA]

I suspect that some of those farms want to appeal the decision though it’s a part that they’ll claim they’re still active and usually make their own decision they’re not active.

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

Well we’re making a decision that they’re not entitled to entry to the farm sustainability payment based on historic information from I think it was 2021 2020 and 2021. That’s on the basis of factual information. They have no crops for example declared on the single application and they’ve got no animals at all in their business so it’s really on a on a very factual basis.

Now it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there is some error and a change in the way a business was structured at a given time. If a business thinks that we have made that determination on the basis of incorrect information then absolutely we have plans for a rapid review of those cases rather than having to go through full review decision process.

[William Irwin MLA]

I suspect there will be those that want to contest that. You know they would.

[Mr Jason Foy (Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs)]

Yeah I suppose it’ll be interesting to see on what basis that those challenges might be made but we you know we do have plans to deal with them if they arise.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Are there any other further questions on this matter? Okay thank you very much for your presentation. And I just thank you for your attendance.

And are Members agreed that the department proceeds to make the SR and then we will then consider it and the SR report formally in due course? Miss Knapp thank you very much. Members we’re going to take a very very focused two to three minute break if that’s okay and then we’re coming back because we have a media agenda to keep up on so please do come back within two to three minutes.

So we’ll go there. Members I’m going to now request that we consider agenda item 8 as listed in the pack before we take an agenda item 7 in order to complete the statutory rules part of the meeting before we take the briefing from RSPB and then we’re going to be able to enjoy watching some nature here with the RSPB officials. So agenda item 8 is the farm sustainability transitional provision regulations in Northern Ireland 2025.

Members I refer you to a number of papers for this agenda item. Pages 145 to 163 of the pack for the revised draft SR farm sustainability transitional provision regulations Northern Ireland 2025 as revised. Pages 18 to 20 of the table papers for the note of the informal meeting with the Minister held on Monday attended by myself and the Deputy Chair.

Pages 23 to 29 of the table papers for the detailed follow-up letter from the Minister from that informal meeting. Page 162 of the pack of correspondence dated the 7th of February from Northern Ireland Environment Link which states that they are in support of the SR and have nothing further to add in the correspondence we received last week from the APSG. And finally pages 21 to 22 of the table papers for the email circulated on Tuesday morning by the Clerk confirming that the Minister was not moving the motion on the 11th of February and detailing relevant procedural advice from the Clerk assistant.

For the record I’m going to run through the history of our consideration of these matters. We were briefed on this draft SR the dear officials that are meeting on the 30th of January when we heard that the draft SR dates the draft regulations discussed with the Committee on the 23rd of May 2024. The department advised that the updates reflect policy decisions since then taking on board some of the views of the Committee at the time and also now the sustainable agricultural program the SAP so the draft SR includes more than was included in the briefing on May the 23rd.

At the meeting in May the Committee received an oral briefing which included referring to the farm sustainability transition payment FSTP replacing the current basic payment scheme BPS and being intended to provide a smooth transition from BPS to the implementation of the farm sustainability payment FSTP in 2026. The Committee heard that the FSTP required farm businesses to declare a minimum of five hectares of eligible land. This was of concern to Members around the impact on around 1400 small farm businesses of three hectares and under and their geographical spread.

This is a matter that has now been satisfactorily concluded. At the meeting on the 30th of January we agreed to write to stakeholders listed on the APSG giving them the opportunity to provide a response to the Committee with their views on the draft SR with the offer of giving an oral briefing to the committee. The letters were issued and four responses have been received from groups that are part of the APSG stating that they are in support of the SR. The Committee also considered the overarching responses from the APSG dated the 4th of February confirming that all its Member groups support the draft affirmative SR. Members at our meeting last week on the 6th of February the majority of the Committee agreed to write to the Minister to request that he did not move the motion on the 11th of February as we did not have the revised SR. The majority of the Committee also agreed to write to the Minister calling for the continuation of the young farmers payment and regional reserve until the farming for generation scheme is introduced. All Members agreed to write to the Minister to obtain full details of the progress of the development of the farming for generation scheme including details of the scheme milestones of development dates and timelines.

Members on Monday the 10th of February myself and the Deputy Chair then met with the Minister to discuss the committee’s concerns and request that he not move the motion on Tuesday. The main points discussed are covered in the note of that meeting and the Minister’s follow-up letter that I referred to in the list of papers for this item. We also requested a further departmental oral briefing today to assist in allaying any concerns but due to the main official not being available we have the Minister’s follow-up letter.

In it the Minister has covered the rationale for planning to close the young farmers payment and regional reserve and this was discussed at the informal meeting on Monday. These are legacy schemes and currently business case cover is in place for them to the end of 2025 scheme to support transition to the replacement schemes. The Minister stated that their continuation is extremely difficult to justify beyond 2025 on a value for money basis.

The policy intent of the YFP scheme and the regional reserve was to increase the numbers of young farmers in the industry who were ahead of volume. However data from the farm structure survey shows that in 2010 prior to the YFP scheme introduction 53% of farm managers in NI were 55 years or over and 22% were 44 years or younger. By 2023 farm managers over 55 years have increased to 58% while those under 44 years have remained static at 22%.

So his interpretation is that the schemes have made no difference to the age structure of the head of holding in NI farms and have not delivered generational renewal. Members the examiner statute rules has confirmed yesterday to declare that she will include these draft regulations in her next issued report on Friday the 14th of February. However given that we had to consider them today and that the debate is on Tuesday she has prioritised these draft regulations later on the 7th of February and confirms for us that they are not required to be drawn to the special attention of the assembly under standing order 43-6.

Members do you have any further comments to make on the Minister’s letter or any other matter in relation to this draft ASR? At this point? Declan?

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

Yeah Chair I think really what’s happened is there’s been no change. There’s been no change from the SL1 that was introduced to the Committee and the meetings I’ve had and the conversations I’ve had have been unchanged. You know obviously I think it’s important that we certainly on behalf of my party want to raise your serious concern that we’re being asked to support the removal of an important support scheme without any clarity or timeline on the replacement of what’s going to replace it which is the the farming for generations scheme.

The issue one of the issues that we have as well is that there is there’s potential of removing the new entrants and the options for entitlements regional reserve that you know this will disadvantage new people who are who are new into farming. If you’re a young farmer in a family you may have the option to inherit entitlements from your father or your grandfather or grandmother or whatever but if you’re brand new to it then this will take away that option and I think moving forward and we just heard from Jason Foy here there’s 930,000 hectares claimed in the north so there’s obviously 930,000 entitlements across the north so if we move forward and there’s no regional reserve and no new entitlements come forward if by true natural course of things entitlements that are currently there start to expire so will we reach a situation where we have 930,000 hectares in the north but not 930,000 single farm payment entitlements so how do you farm then if you don’t have not enough entitlements to match the amount of land there is so I just think that it’s regrettable that we haven’t seen any change to this despite the concerns that have been flagged up

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

yeah and to be fair you did you were at the end to point that out in the meeting with the Minister the other day in regards to that any other comments Michelle?

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

Yeah I would say I’d raise the issue just in relation to the young farmers and I was concerned and with regards to that I’m also concerned the fact that I’d asked that the young farmers clubs of Ulster be come up actually for us to have a conversation with them and given the fact we’ve had a couple of weeks that hasn’t actually happened I do think that there hasn’t been the same amount of consultation with that particular group from the department either my understanding has been quite some time since the department officials met them directly and I suppose everything now is now being filtered through this other group that’s been put together Declan’s right there hasn’t been any change despite the fact that there have been concerns raised over the excess of two weeks now so the other thing I would be keen to find out from the department is with regards to this sort of cliff edge now that we’re being told that there is that if this if we don’t agree to these regulations that farmers won’t then get paid so I’d like some clarity with regards to what the implications are if these regulations aren’t agreed to I’m not sure whether that we can get that before the end of today before the end of this Committee meeting or it’s maybe something that might need to be sent around Members before the end of the week

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

I think that’s probably a more achievable

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

I’d just like to know the implications because I do find that we’re being rushed into a lot of this and you know and once we agree to this then that then starts the train running and we have a lot of other regs that are going to be coming and which are associated directly to this so there’s a big responsibility on us with regards to this

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

There’s no doubt there’s a big responsibility in this one because as Declan has pointed out to it’s closed for new entrants basically because it’s just the same as buying a license and there was another thing that you raised in with the Minister was the value of those entitlements being dictated by the holder really to you know which could be a further barrier to new entrants but the Minister was against to point out that a big part of the work that he’s done in this is for that regeneration and renewal which absolutely is I’ve no doubt is a big priority for him so Declan?

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

Yeah Chair I should have said there yeah that was the point that I highlighted to the Minister that if new entrants are not able to get new entitlements from the regional reserve they have to then get them from a lot of farmers but there’s no from rates entitlements you know they’re very widely across and I should say just want to reiterate our position our position is that we believe that the young farmers scheme the regional reserve and the option for new entitlements should continue at least until there is we see the shape of what’s going to replace it

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

yeah I think it’s well obviously the Committee can take a position just John

[John Blair MLA]

sure sure yeah couple of points firstly I understand Declan’s point he’s raised it consistently I see it differently given that my PAC shows me there are value for money issues around what he’s raising clear clear value for money issues and also separately my PAC tells me that there have only been five people per year generally availing of that opportunity in comparison to according to the PAC 120 who applied for the pilot scheme on the farming for generations scheme now there’s major disparity there in terms of levels of interest and I’m assuming that would translate to uptake as well so I’m not content to delay further on something that’s already been clarified and presented to us and a number of notes here but most specifically in the PAC that serves this Committee secondly there appears to be another issue that’s arisen now I’ll need to hear it read out and how it’s going to be recorded if we’re going to proceed on that because I’m concerned that we’re finding new issues every time this comes to us even though there’s been a number of opportunities in recent weeks to relay those to the department could you be more explicit what that new issue is do you believe to be John? I don’t know I thought there was one being discussed there and that’s why I’m asking for clarification if there is another addition being on which there’s clarification being sought I’ll be getting that out at that point

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

yeah I’m not sure that there is but to be to be fair I think whether the Committee at any stage has evidence arises if it comes to a Member it would be incumbent upon them to raise it before something’s made I think as long as I know what it is

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

if the regulations are not agreed what is the impact on farmers payments?

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

oh is that oh yes that’s the piece yeah okay in the briefings and certainly what’s been alluded to is that the time pressure for getting this done is that there could be a delay then in the payments and the raft of payments that subsequently come behind that and that’s and I don’t think it’s a new a new question I think it’s something that has driven this it has actually given the energy to it’s what the the evidence that the department have given to us with the Minister in terms of the need to do it in this time frame William you’d indicate

[William Irwin MLA]

I just there’s also an issue those 4,000 farmers that are going to be deemed to be inactive there’s going to be a very short window for those to transfer their entitlements so there’s going to be a lot of entitlements around next spring not this year next year so I do think it will create an issue you know and there will definitely be those that will want to challenge the fact that they’re inactive I would have thought so it will be an issue

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

okay there’s a point that we will get to in today’s debate where I’m going to ask the Committee in terms of whether they support the SOR but there’s evidently a number of queries and questions that Members would like urgent referral to by the department in terms of trying to get that level of detail because there is it I think that evidently there is some time pressure to this whether it’s just as serious as it is obviously the Minister in the department the evidence but I don’t think the Committee certainly wants to deliberately delay but at the same time need some clarity and clarification around a number of items and issues the first one I suppose was Declan’s point about the and this was raised with the Minister and the Minister didn’t kick it out by the way about the continuation of the young farmers so that there was no gap between the two which I think is reasonable if our Members content that that’s a question that we seek a clarification on

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

… the regional reserve.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

and sorry?

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

… the regional reserve.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

yes in the regional reserve do what in what way do you want to point

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

the continuation of the regional reserve yeah and the young farmers scheme until the new policy kicks in

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

okay Michelle you had a point that you wanted to clarify because not I think it’s kind of a yeah

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

mine is what the impact is of us not agreeing to this today I suppose maybe isn’t just as necessary as obviously whenever it comes to the debate on in the chamber but I think we do need to have that information at hand to know what the consequences of any actions are um

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

were there any other queries questions in regard to what we’re seeking from the department and this the Minister are you content Clerk you’ve captured

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

give me two seconds please

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

yes

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

well obviously John Blair has raised that the running money issues and the number of families plans the pallet scheme so he wasn’t content to delay further um there’s an issue from a minimum about 4 000 farmers deemed to be an act will be will be deemed to be inactive but was there a question there for the department

[William Irwin MLA]

the question to me is just there’s a very short window for those people to move their entitlements on and the department did answer that but saying there’s much more land coming into land that was ineligible isn’t going to be eligible so they thought that there will be time to transfer those items but I think it is an issue because will be some challenge the issue of an inactive I just don’t think set forward as the department thinks about it

[Thomas Buchanan MLA]

yeah I suppose the issue is is the department taking into consideration a time frame and it’s going to it’s going to take for somebody to appeal that and then if they lose the appeal then for to transfer entitlements after that yeah I think that’s the issue

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

before you know

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

yeah so I think I think we’ve we’ve enough there so we’ll take those answers um the debate will be on the 18th february which is next week so in terms of as Chair I have to obviously reflect the the position of the Committee in that so is the Committee in a position to support the draft sr generally on the 18th of february I will reflect the issues discussed at the Committee in my speech

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

do we have to have a Committee position between that different until until we get that clarification

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

yeah yeah well yeah that can be recorded in a minute so you weren’t prepared to

[Aine Murphy MLA]

if we get I suppose if we get a response i’m not saying tonight or tomorrow must be over the weekend is there a possibility of having to make that Committee meeting on monday I could I could

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

yeah do my lecture I couldn’t answer that right where I was about today I haven’t even got my own wi-fi and we will you know we’ll discuss we’ll do our level best if you wish to start you know before before um clean restart on monday

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

i just think it’s hard to make an assessment

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

no no it’s just it’s just reflecting it’s just it’s just really well yeah cheryl um you’re asking the community is decide whether they’re going to whether you should support on behalf of the Committee or not because you don’t i

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s necessary I think I think in my certainly in the last mandate and the legislation that was done around for instance integrated education bill the Chair who was in favor and that was chris was was able to just say there was a range of views reflected and the Committee didn’t come to a position and then it’s allowed to your point is in the debate you make your points but I think to be proactive as a proactive Committee being incumbent on us if we do get the information if we can’t come to a position um i’m happy to reflect that but it’s also it’s also appropriate for me to say there wasn’t a consensus and then you Members can speak yeah we tried to get the information and so on

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

i think it’s unfortunate that we don’t have a representative from the department here and I understand that obviously conflicts of diary and everything else but I suppose given the fact that this is an urgent piece of legislation for the department that someone could have been here at least have given some kind of direction on the tail bits of information that’s

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

required I on this and genuinely to be noted I do absolutely agree um and did say that it probably would work a whole lot better if someone could come because it would probably get your stuff from the departmental perspective it would just show something else um but it was made quite plain on the day because I think the senior official was there and and he didn’t have he just didn’t have diary capacity we asked could would be someone else and they said they would look at it but evidently they just couldn’t so so the position when we’re not

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

Sorry, could you clarify again – just couldn’t what, Robbie?

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Provide someone to give us a in-person briefing on this today now they really have to be for previously but given the just the technical changes I thought it was a good enough reason to bring someone in

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

i think the key official is out of the country but yeah that doesn’t answer

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

your question of other people attached to the… William?

[William Irwin MLA]

…the young farmer in the regional reserve I suspect the department knows more about this than they’re telling us I it was a wee bit open to abuse

[John Blair MLA]

Chair, we might need to be careful around some of that terminology to be quite frank and to be clear some of us may not have needed another briefing so it should not be reflected that all of us would have um yeah and go back to john’s point john’s point is absolutely right too i’ve heard before and i’m aware of the stakeholder group position as well which has been stated to me quite a number of times and discussed here also um so I don’t think I would have needed any further clarification on any of that and I think my views therefore should be

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

reflected as well okay we have a letter that we’ve agreed in a series of questions that we will seek an urgent response to and then if Members are minded and if it’s useful i’m more than happy to be a brief one-item agenda meeting if there’s a need uh on monday if Members are minded to dependent on so if you if you if over the weekend you would remain just vigilant in terms of communication coming through we’ll fire something out and that’s sick do you want to have a meeting off the back of it and i’ll make myself available and which you guys

[John Blair MLA]

will as long as there’s a mechanism Chair if any of us can’t attend that many of us that there’ll be some email clarification of absolutely

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

an agreed position or

[John Blair MLA]

otherwise rather than yeah be declared an agreed position when someone who may not have agreed could not be there 100 percent

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

are Members content yeah okay thank you so much thank you guys um okay we’re going to move now back to agenda item seven and that’s a briefing from RSPB Northern Ireland update on their current issues so i’m going to refer Members to pages one four three of the pack this item um and refer you also to a draft press release on our meeting here today that Members received via email and could you just ask our Members content with the the draft press release

[Committee Members]

yeah yeah

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

uh well so i’ll welcome them to show up to the door thanks for that guys that was useful okay i’m gonna um just welcome the following representatives from RSPB Northern Ireland to brief the Committee and then we’ll take some questions from Members after the meeting we have Miss Joanne Sherwood the director, Miss Michelle Hill head of nature policy and casework and there’s Anne-Marie McDevitt head of species thank you very much thank you for allowing us to use your wonderful premises here and we’re really looking forward to your briefing and yeah okay just whenever you’re comfortable you can yeah no

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

that’s great yeah uh thank you very much so uh you’re are you all right down there yeah yeah okay make sure everybody’s settled um so hello everybody my name is Joanne Sherwood and i’m the director of RSPBNI and you’re all very welcome here to window and wildlife which is one of our 11 nature reserves here in Northern Ireland like you may be surprised to know that here in the heart of belfast there’s more than 100 um species you know can be found just right outside the window from lapwings to terns to curly to gulls and godwits to comic ponies i’m not sure if you’ve seen those today yet and rabbits and recently and it’s still here i’ve checked we had an avocet arrive and that’s a really rare and exciting occurrence in belfast and it’s also the emblem of the RSPB and you’ll see it in our logo so it is still here um I have to say I haven’t seen very much of it and because it’s hunkering down quite a lot of time but you might see it later on so the RSPB is the uk’s largest nature conservation charity operating locally including here where we’ve been working for nearly 60 years we’re also a lead organisation in the bird life international worldwide partnership and we work very closely with bird watch ireland and to save birds and their habitats on the island of ireland we’ve got about 1.2 million Members across the uk about 12 and a half thousand here in Northern Ireland and locally we’ve got 110 staff and 550 volunteers now those numbers are slightly different to the briefing that you received um so we’ve had uh we take stock annually off our Membership so that’s why there’s sort of new figures there and our staff change together with partners we work to protect species and restore habitats at large scale from our reserves to coastlines peatlands and farmlands and we’re funded by Members and supporters and we also receive grants from bodies such as dara the lottery and esme firburn for large projects for example sort of engaging communities and young people restoring peatland species recovery and landscape scale nature conservation we campaign to protect and inspire a world richer in nature specifically around agriculture marine and environmental planning and governance and in some respects that’s why we’re here today and really delighted to be able to meet you because we believe this Committee has a key role to play in protecting our environment for this generation and the next so to protect our waterways for clean air and to save those key and iconic species such as curly and puffin which are the ones that seem to make the press mostly you may not be aware but nature is in crisis um 12 of species in the island of ireland are at risk of extinction and according to the natural history museum Northern Ireland ranks 12th worst out of 240 countries for biodiversity loss 12th worst out of 200 so 12th from the bottom for biodiversity loss and a quarter of our birds are now red listed which means they’re the highest category of conservation concern because they’re at risk of extinction important decisions are being made and schemes are currently being developed and those schemes and those decisions can help improve nature’s um fortune most importantly the farming with nature scheme that needs to deliver both for farmers and for nature and Michelle hill who’s our head of nature policy will highlight our top policy priorities in a moment but first i’m going to hand over to Anne-Marie McDevitt who’s our head of species who’ll take you through some operational priorities

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

so thank you for the opportunity to talk to you today I have worked for RSPB for 23 years and as Joanne said i’m head of species so I just want to take a wee bit of a step back um because some of you will be very familiar with this and others not why birds so when you think about birds they’re they’re in every habitat there is they’re all over the planet so they’re widespread we tend to have excellent information on them really good data and they’re at the top of the food chain so that means that birds are really excellent indicators as well as having a moral obligation to protect them so they tell you about the health of the environment they are the they are the best indicators for that and they’re very sensitive to changes in the environment so um so for example if you’ve got a thriving population of puffins then you know straight away that those puffins are safe place to nest on land free of places free of rats and ferrets and there’s also you know plenty of fish in the sea for them to feed on so that puffin is telling you that the marine environment is in good condition so our aim as an organisation is to stop extinction of species as Joanne said we want to turn around declines and priority species those that are you know most inclined but we also want to keep an eye on our common species and make sure that they remain common so what we do is we focus on the highest priorities as you would expect us to do every six years we produce both a UK and an all Ireland birds of conservation concern and that puts birds on a red amber or green list and you’ll have heard a lot I’m sure about those lists with obviously the red and amber being of the highest conservation concern and species that are green mean that they’re doing okay we have a hundred priority species that RSPB focus on and that’s across the UK our overseas territories and we also work in several other countries where we support our bird life partners of those hundred species we focus on 28 in Northern Ireland and they include farming birds like the curlew, seabirds like the puffin, birds of prey like the hen harrier and long distance corn prick but what I want you to really kind of think about here is that virtually all of those 28 species are dependent on the sustainable management of our farmland or our seas so the highest the species that are most concerned us are farmland and seabirds and these farmland species have evolved alongside farming for thousands of years so we sometimes hear people saying okay you know these species can evolve the farming changes but they can’t they’ve evolved for thousands of years so something like the yellowhammer a seed eating farming bird it’s very big it’s very intestines are designed to feed on cereal seeds it can’t just switch overnight so if you hear people saying that that’s it’s just not true they can’t evolve that quickly and the other thing is that they’re dependent on active environmentally sustainable farming so this is definitely not about shutting the gate these birds have evolved alongside the growth of cereals the growth of hay meadows and they need active farming if we shut the farm gate everything will turn to trees which are good in their own right but we lose a lot of species so if I start with farmland you know that is why for us the most important thing is that we want to see a long-term well-funded sustainable agriculture program it needs to deliver biodiversity water soil air quality and carbon and we want to see farmers really well rewarded for this key parts of it have to be advisory for farmers and monitoring to see if things are working but these need to be truly co-designed you know we’re hearing a lot about co-design at the minute but it’s but what we’re really feeling is that we’re simply being consulted after the fact we and other NGOs we’ve been working on agri-environment schemes for now 25 years not just in the delivery and monitoring but also in the design of schemes 25 years so another key thing is alongside agri-environment schemes is in many cases we need the protected sites as well and they are there obviously to protect our most important areas for species and habitats yet we’re 150 pairs of curlew and the Agile Health still has not been designated as an SPA and work started that one out with NIA a couple of years ago that’s still not designated and that’s really really important for us we also need dedicated species recovery funding and a lot of the time this has fallen to the ENGOs and why we need this is often the policies still don’t have what we need to deliver for species and we also sometimes need to carry out activities the policy won’t ever deliver yet it’s ENGOs that are that are applying for funding to plug those gaps so for example something like the Curlew Life Funding it’s paying for predator control and nest fencing for curlew over and above agri-environment schemes and that’s absolutely essential and we have to plug that gap until agri-environment schemes can deliver those things then when we look at seabirds that second group then the most important thing really is the seabird conservation strategy we’re really pleased to have seen that go out for consultation and that really was a lot more in terms of co-design for the NGO sector and it needs to deliver for seabirds by delivering through marine policy and that’s really ensuring that there are marine planning fisheries and marine protected areas and protecting seabirds and their food sources at sea but we also again need this dedicated funding for protection of their own land so at the minute we have the seabird colonies in Athlin but we have a lot of seabirds called terns that are on small islands networks of small islands and these are in the sea loughs like Strangford and Carlingford but all in the freshwater loughs of Lough Neagh and Lough Erne and these sites we need to make sure that they don’t have invasive species like rats only they need to be monitored the habitat needs to be managed and we also need to create new habitat because a lot of these smaller islands now are shifting as a result of climate change so it’s about marine policy but it’s also about protecting where these species are nesting again ENGO is plugging that gap as you well know we’re funding we do have match funding from DRF for this which is great but we’re delivering the life raft program on Athlin and that’s eradication of rats and ferrets but more needs to be done for seabirds so that’s me finished and I will now pass you on to Michelle.

[Michelle Hill (RSPB)]

Hello folks and thank you very much for the opportunity to speak today as Joanne’s already said I’m Michelle Hill I’m head of nature policy and casework with RSPB and as Joanne and Anne-Marie has already shown the state of nature in Northern Ireland is not particularly good and as we edge closer to the 2030 deadline to halt biodiversity loss we need strong political leadership and ambition to meet that and to match that challenge and that’s why we’re calling on your help in the following areas to make a positive change for nature.

I’m going to talk to you about the need for targets and law for nature’s recovery an independent environmental protection agency alongside our other priorities on land and at sea including delivering on 30 by 30 completing the protected sites network and rolling out a robust forming the nature package and addressing the nature and climate emergency but first I want to acknowledge progress that’s been made in the publication of Northern Ireland’s first environmental improvement plan that’s an important step in the implementation of the Environment Act and that is welcome. And while that is welcome the target setting framework for for legally binding targets within the Act sadly does not apply to Northern Ireland due to the Act being written at a time when there was an absence of the Stormont executive. This means that our environmental improvement plan is missing that legislative footing that would enable its roadmap to deliver for nature and allow for its recovery and that’s really important so that’s why we’re calling for targets and law for nature’s recovery.

We know from our own research that the executive strategies that are not supported by a legal framework frequently fail to create the necessary change and for example we did our own analysis and a couple years ago in the Northern Ireland biodiversity strategy which was to run between 2015 and 2020 and that was to positively benefit nature but we found through our analysis that 35 of government departments failed in one or two actions so that’s quite significant. There’s also just been a recent call for evidence regarding the review of environmental governance and while welcome it’s long overdue and we remain the only part of the UK and Ireland that doesn’t have an independent environmental protection agency. Northern Ireland has historically had unacceptable levels of non-compliance with environmental law and this has resulted in substantial degradation of our environment and brought with it significant costs both social and economic and that’s why we’re calling on an that’s why we’re calling on for a sorry that’s why we’re calling for an environmental agency that is independent of government which provides transparency, oversight and enforcement of laws that are in place to protect our environment and safeguard nature and public health.

Turning now to our priority for land and sea and while the clock is ticking down to 2030 there does however remain opportunity to make the most of what remains of this decade to stop biodiversity loss and support nature’s recovery and we do welcome the executive’s commitment to support the delivery of 30 by 30 in the recently published environmental improvement plan and by 30 by 30 that means it refers to a target to protect and have well managed 30% of our land and 30% of our sea for nature by 2030. And as Anne-Marie’s mentioned already those protected areas they will form the backbone of our 30 by 30 and that’s why we’re calling for the terrestrial and marine protected sites network to be completed including for some of the species that you’ve just mentioned Anne-Marie.

And from the marine environment specifically the implementation seabird conservation strategy will also be critical in assessing the current significant declines in seabird species. And on land as you’ve heard already we believe that agri-environment schemes are a key mechanism to delivering conservation action for priority species and habitats and therefore the farming with nature package will be critically important. We welcome the Minister prioritising the farming with nature package but adequate funding and resourcing must be provided to develop and roll out a robust package.

So far I’ve been talking to you about the nature emergency but I also want to briefly highlight the research on climate change and biodiversity and that has shown that the nature and climate emergencies are inextricably linked. It is therefore essential that we pursue them together in an integrated and joined-up approach and it’s imperative that action on climate change does not increase the threat to nature. They cannot be resolved in isolation or traded off against one another they’re essentially two sides of the one coin if you like and this is particularly important in a renewable energy context.

As you’ve just heard there’s much to do within an ever diminishing time frame and as we continue to campaign on our priorities we look forward to working with Ministers and MLAs in an urgent and transformative way to match the scale of action required to help save nature.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Thank you so much for your presentation really it’s very very useful like the picture from the start I’m sure others had it too it’s like the canary in the mine of the early warning that birds can give us in regards to the environment that they’re in and so thank you for that. I’m just going to if you’re content we’ll just fire some questions at you if that’s okay. You talked about the need for a new Agriculture Act and how that could assist the work of the RSPB.

It says in the in the briefing that I’ve got here on one of the pages and if you could just explain it a wee bit further it says the publication of proposals for a new Agriculture Act that will prioritise public money for public goods. So the bit in there just looking some quantification around or explanation is what does for public goods actually mean? Could you expand on that piece for me please?

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

Yeah I’m very happy to expand on that. So the easiest way that I think about it is is that when you go into a shop you can buy things for money and those are not public goods because you can pay for them and you can you can receive them. So public goods are the things that you don’t see traded through shops.

So it’s things like clean air, clean water, good quality soil and it’s all the things that we we need to enjoy. Nature is one of them. It’s all the things we need to enjoy and actually support, underpin you know things like a really sound economy you know a good healthy society.

So that’s the easiest way that I find to think about it. If you buy it in a shop it’s private goods. If you can’t but they’re essential then it’s public goods.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Thank you. I have a the you raised the matter of the establishment of an independent environmental protection agency independent of government and that’s something that there’s been a variety of opinions debated in the chamber. Is there anything that you could point to that would show the gaps that are there at the moment from the bodies that already exist and there’s a there’s a number of them obviously across the piece that the department have that where the obvious gaps are that need to be closed and do you feel that they’re currently not independent of government or the department?

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

Yeah so I can I can start and point to a number of gaps and then I’ll bring in colleagues. So I think that when you’re part of a government department then you know you probably are less able you have to engage in the policy discussions sort of behind the doors so to speak so in terms of then being able to produce evidence that would feed into the overall you know department way of working so there is a gap in terms of being able to see things maybe from a number of different angles so that would be one of the gaps. I don’t think our regulation here is has been particularly strong and some of my colleagues may have some statistics to back to back that up and I think that an independent Environmental Protection Agency acting independently can make its own decisions about some of those things it’s not it’s not subject to that it would have an independent board and other jurisdictions are set up in different ways most are non-governmental departmental bodies and therefore have some sponsorship arrangement with the lead government department. I think the other question we often get is well there’s the Office of Environmental Protection that has been recently set up I’m probably pre-empting a question there you know how is it the same or different to that and the easiest way again I sort of think about this is that an independent Environmental Protection Agency would deal with domestic matters the role of the Office of Environmental Protection is to hold government departments to account and public bodies to account so they hold different groups of people to account as the independent Environmental Protection Agency totally domestic looking kind of outside of government the OEP looks at kind of the systemic ways that public authorities make decisions and you know in a way to think about it kind of replaces some of the things that the European system would have provided for historically.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Okay thank you thank you for that.

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

I don’t know whether did you have any statistics about regulations?

[Michelle Hill (RSPB)]

No I don’t actually.

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

That’s okay I’m going to bring Members because I do have some indications from Members here of the so Declan you first that’s okay thank you.

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

Thank you that’s very interesting presentation thank you very much throughout your presentation and on the notes you made a number of references to the farming with nature and you quite greatly said that the Minister has prioritised this. What would be the key components that you would like to see in a farming with nature package which you think would be beneficial in terms of meeting your aims and objectives?

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

So I think in terms of farming with nature I mean Anne-Marie has already talked about the fact that we have had a lot of experience through farming with nature over many years and it is that kind of public money for public goods approach and I think the other thing about it is some of the benefits are making sure that there’s targeted advice to farmers during that process. We’ve worked very successfully in a number of group schemes where there has been that advice on what to do on the ground. I see it as really a partnership approach and quite often it’s peer-to-peer advice as well, farmer-to-farmer which works really really well.

I think then there is something about the monitoring of those schemes to make sure that the advice and the work that’s being done is really targeted so that the objectives are being delivered whatever and those objectives could be across a number of things but you know we would be particularly interested in saving the threatened farmland birds that Anne-Marie has spoken about and then the other thing in the farming with nature is it needs to be long term, it needs to carry on.

It has felt a little bit like one scheme is you know stopping and we need to you know there’s going to be a pilot opening and then there’s going to be something longer term but you do need really long-term action on these things to keep it going because as Anne-Marie said you know there isn’t any evolution. I don’t know whether any of that might come to mind.

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

Yeah I mean it just to reinforce, I mean the long-term thing is really important even if you have break clauses in it because at the minute even the wider scheme closed in 2023 we don’t have any wider scheme, we’re waiting to see about the higher scheme whether it’s opening and there’s been gaps in the past and if we have gaps in it we lose farmers confidence you know as well. So the long-term thing is you know they’re talking about potentially 20 years and these species have been declining over 5 to 30 years, they take that amount of time and farmers also need that long-term security if they’re going to make these big changes that we’re talking about. I mean we we probably know what options they need to be in, there are a lot more options than they own in a countryside management scheme and a lot of those have dropped off so you’re really talking about you want things in there that allow farmers to manage all the existing habitats yeah and then create new habitat whether that’s hedges or riparian zones and then for say farming birds you know you want wild bird cover so we know what all those those are but you have to have all the parts long-term, enough funding, you have to have the monitoring, the advisory and yeah you know and and if one of those things drops off it just kind of doesn’t work so the gaps have been a real issue for us but the co-creation is another thing as well we see if I’m very frank we see people in the department changing a lot so some of the knowledge is gone and we hear the words co-design but it’s not really co-design it’s what do you think of this and really I think we need to be bringing in the NGO and some farmers as well people have experience of delivery and I know maybe they’re stuck in terms of they’re thinking we need to develop a new scheme but I think they just need to take the best out of the old schemes so ourselves and other NGOs have been delivering those landscape scale projects and group options so I don’t know if you know but those look like up in Andrew Hills you know we’re working over about four thousand hectares there you know with about 50 farmers there and that’s we get them into the schemes because our staff are also farm planners we give them advice we monitor and then we say to the farmer look you know you’ve done this brilliant you know currently have increased or you may be adapted in this way so I think that’s the future but again they’re talking about piloting that and we’re saying where are you piloting it when we are ready you know just continue what’s there and expand it maybe but to go back to sort of describing it as a pilot when you’re ready you know so the big thing I think is is we need to be involved in co-design and I think we’re going to be you know saying that very strongly soon because we’re we’re in difficulties if it’s described as co-design when it’s not and the scheme doesn’t work our names will be on it I’m being very frank here

[Declan McAleer MLA (Deputy Chairperson)]

I think that was the point Chair I actually would ask the question of co-design you know because you know and looking at the farm with nature I think the department are looking back over the competitive management scheme and the environmental farm scheme to see what lessons can be learned from there and obviously consulting with the sector so I do think certainly I would propose that the Committee supports that view the likes of our SPB should be very much involved in the co-design of the farm with nature scheme which is I think opened up by the end of this year is that correct yeah yeah that’s great thank you thank you

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Dougal and Michelle okay thank you and

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

thank you for your presentation it’s nice to be back here again I suppose I suppose this is maybe a philosophical question maybe I don’t know but does the RSPB ever feel conflicted in sort of supposed promotion of climate change and also protecting and enhancing biodiversity I suppose I’m thinking particularly around some of the mechanisms which are being put into place in order to achieve targets particularly around renewables and so on to and wind farms and obviously the impact that that will have on our wild bird population in particular

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

yeah I mean shall I kick off and then I’ll bring in Michelle. I mean I think Michelle summed it up when she said it was sort of two sides of the same same coin climate change and nature you know depletion they’re both in crisis and the solutions have to be for both together so if you go just for technological solutions those could be at the risk of at the risk of nature it’s one of the reasons why we were really passionate about getting nature-based solutions into the climate act because that is a way to solve both the nature crisis and the climate solution so you asked specifically about renewables and potentially wind farms so Michelle will give you a little a few examples and some detail and there are there definitely the right renewable in the right place I think would be how I would sum it up at a high level but there are very few times where we wouldn’t work with somebody and you know it’s just a total like you know right now it would be it would be few and far between but there are some instances where we would have to draw a line and say actually this is just not the right place but Michelle this is your expert topic area

[Michelle Hill (RSPB)]

yeah it’s um yeah absolutely Michelle it’s uh it’s getting that they’re both they’re both in both an emergency but really we do not want to be contributing to the demise of the other in solving one and that’s and that is a problem when it comes to nature in particular with renewables in the wrong place and I really just want to say we are not anti-renewables by any stretch uh of the imagination it certainly is about getting the right renewables in in the right place and um you know very often we make positive comments to to those applications um on but as Joanne has said there are times when we do have to draw the line and in the last 10 years I think we’ve rejected two to three off the top of my head three applications out of 22 wind farms that we’ve looked at you know so it is quite small but for the species that are impacted for example Curlew and the Antrim hills that when you’re down to 150 pairs and the science we are an organisation that’s based on science it’s not it’s not an e-jerk reaction to something we look at scientific hats on and say well what are the potential impacts here and for the likes of the Antrim hills they could be an important Curlew areas we know that Curlew are really struggling at the moment they’re down to around 150 pairs down from you know in the last 30 years crashed by over around 80 percent so it’s really imperative that the work that we’re doing in the likes of the Antrim hills and that we’re receiving funding from as well from DAERA to help save those species then isn’t undermined by the wrong development in the wrong place and particularly when they’re hanging in the balance so yes it’s it’s about and this is where a strategic spatial approach to the deployment of renewables and we know that to get to net zero there is going to have to be a rapid deployment both on land and at sea it’s not just terrestrial getting the right development in the right place we need to do that in the marine environment as well so but we need to work together we need to work as a collective because renewables is good and to get to net zero is excellent but we need to minimise and eradicate those unintended consequences of getting to net zero on on nature and the environment and that’s going to be critical moving forward because there certainly is an emphasis on climate and climate change and a feeling that that could trump nature but really they they need to be addressed simultaneously

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

moving forward okay so it’s really just on a case-by-case basis that you look at yes yeah no I think Michelle

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

Michelle makes a really good I nearly got confused there but Michelle Michelle makes a really good point about that strategic plan so Northern Ireland doesn’t have a land use plan currently I know there have been various talks over the years about getting towards a land use plan um but but you know just having those discussions in the coat light of day about where are the best places to cite some of those things you know strategically I think would be uh a good thing okay thank you and just

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

one more question it’s just really um in the presentation you had mentioned I suppose um the predator control for curlews and also the eradication of rats and ferrets on rathlin and I suppose it’s a general question really around what the approach is to protect um growing nesting birds from predators

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

yeah um

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

yeah I mean none of us want to do predator control is the first thing to say but it’s absolutely essential at the minute things are currently what’s happened is when you kind of um everything lots of things have changed the landscapes changed in the habitat so the habitat to them is reduced and it’s kind of more fragmented and then we’ve also changed the landscape by planting over the years you know big conifer blocks so we have much more you know that will make kind of harbour foxes and things we find that curlew and other species that are nest on ground nest within a few hundred meters of those so we’ve kind of changed the landscape we’ve reduced the habitat and predators have an even greater impact so what we do need to do is we used to do habitat management alone and we were still seeing curlew declining so we’ve had to do predator control it’s very targeted what does that look like so we we did research in the 90s and found that the things that were impacting on curlew were foxes and great crows we find they were having even if you had the habitat right because of those predators now the entire levels because of the landscape and the fragmentation and that they were impacting so badly at curlew curlew they have to have just one chick to adulthood every second year and they weren’t getting anywhere near that they need to do that to sustain and increase the population so um so unfortunately we’ve had to predator control but as I say it’s very targeted for those two species that we did the science on and so we do that and we also do nest protection fencing as well and so when the eggs and when the curlew are on have young chicks and have eggs and young chicks we have an electric fence around them now the reason why we need the predator control and the nest fencing is because you can only put the nest fencing around the curlew for a few days because curlew chicks actually feed themselves so once they hatch they will move around to feed so you can’t keep them contained within the fence and that’s why you need the wider predator control because there’s no point in these young chicks being protected for the first few days inside a fence you remove the fence to let them go out to feed and then you know they’re taken by a fox so you need to do but as a result of you know we’re we’re managing the habitats around the environment schemes and the advice and then we talked up the we’ve been carrying out the predator control and the nest fencing through EU let curlew life and that’s the first time now I’m healthy I’ve started to see curlew increase in numbers but not just that the amount of chicks that they’re producing has really really increased and is that

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

was that whenever you talk about predator control is that the removal of the predator yes yeah yeah yeah it’s humane

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

it’s done by um by contractors that are you know have to have to follow them

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

and is it and is it just foxes just fathers of badgers as well

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

no no just are protected species we we

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

only control but is there control off badgers that’s what i’m saying no

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

no no no we don’t control about badgers yeah and the fences will will keep out badgers anyway yes protection fences in those early stages um and any other but maybe even sheep can sometimes trot on the nest so they keep all those things out so our focus is on the fact

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

that the fences will actually then just sort of move them on essentially that’s what i’m saying

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

yeah the fences are just the fences are there as I said they just protect them at that egg stage and at the young chick stage as I said then they tend to roam the adults and the chicks can roam then after that and that’s why you need that wider predator control you’re trying to get those chicks to turn into adults basically as simple as that you’re sort of looking

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

for behavioral change in and around those areas then from my

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

you know you’re just looking I mean really what you want over time is you want to change the landscape so you have fewer predators apparently we have the highest number of foxes in anywhere across europe um and you know they think it’s yeah you don’t have as much predator control as you used to but that land use change has really made a big difference you know the forestry blocks will hold lots of foxes and when we remove them they’re sort of working them to hide then you know so that can have an impact and

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

the eradication scheme now on rathlin what will that look like

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

yeah the ferrets have been eradicated now um but we have to wait two breeding seasons just just check that we definitely have got rid of those they were brought on the island by someone to control rabbits so these items as you know would never have had their mature islands that’s why seabirds are on them because they’ve never going to have these predators um so the ferrets have been uh that eradication finished in october but I think we’ll not know until um 2026 2026 we’ll be able to say it’s totally clear the rat eradication I think is also almost complete now um and again we we then move into a biosecurity phase so we were prepared we monitor them across the island to make sure there are none and we also have to do all that work with the boats going across because biosecurity is huge we don’t want to be spending millions of deer money and lhf money to find that they’ve come back on again because as you know we’ve maybe we’ve had you know people kind of scaling down cliffs and it’s just been massive and that’s the first ferret eradication in um europe I think maybe in the world actually

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

if I can just say that predator control is always the last resort after you’ve tried everything else and the situation is just so desperate and we do it under very very strict governance and it is really well challenged and tested and um you know and we have external advisors who help support us

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

and incredibly expensive then too

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

it is you know and it’s not a decision that we take lightly it’s not not something that um the people who work on it you know it’s not it’s not wouldn’t be their favorite part of the job but actually you know we have some some evidence from rather than when a ferret got down onto the seabirds and just was devastated overnight you know tens of days

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

i mean the two positives about that is if you remove rats and ferrets from Rathlin you’ll be amazed what you see so those puffins at the bottom of the cliffs if you go to other welsh islands they’ll be they’ll start to expand you’ll have mice shearwaters which nest in kennett holes and drystone walls they can probably come all over the island there’s a few remaining pairs at the east side it’ll have benefits even for our corncrake, so we’ve brought corncrake, lapwing, again kind of largely gone from the island so once you remove rats and ferrets it’s going to have a huge number of other benefits in terms of the curlew that work is expensive but you kind of have to reMember over those thousands of hectares what you’re doing is the good thing is when you give farmers advice on habitat management a lot of that management is about you know taking fields that are chest high brush and you know opening them up more for grazing so it’s good farming practice protects the kind of species richness and those are also powerful soils so when you manage the curlew you’re actually protecting you it’s a flagship really for protecting that land you know it’s not just you’re not just spending a mile curlew

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

congratulations on the work that you’re doing actually and particularly in and around Rathlin

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

yeah no Rathlin it’ll be amazing it will be amazing and of course the it’s done with the community the community are very excited about it you know having chickens again for example but also the impact and you know that what people will say when they visit Rathlin because it’s a big tourist draw as well so it supports those jobs and a tourist economy in the north coast

[Michelle McIlveen MLA]

thank you very much can I just ask

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

before bring John and then Patsy just in regard to the curlew and lapwing um the declaration of interest used to work in mcgibbey prison and there were huge huge numbers of both at that stage it was a long time ago is that still the case or do RSPB have any work I mean obviously there’s no predators uh

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

as far as I know it’s been designated so if it happened years ago we had a operation lapwing and we put a call out for any farmers of lapwing we got a call from mcgibbey prison yeah um because they were the original predator fences I talk about the electric fence but on our reserves where we can put big permanent predator fences we can’t do that in farms really but we can do it so it was the original predator fence and so it just means that it’s only avian for other avian predators great crews so I think we’re still um I think it’s designated now

[Michelle Hill (RSPB)]

and I know that they were doing some habitat management measures uh sometime ago um with keep um keeping um fallow plots and soil because they like soil and marie can talk to you more about that uh but um they were actively managing uh some of the areas within

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

the rabbits weren’t so healthy i’ll tell you that it’s not so good having those in close and so close to each other um okay if you just go to then invite John and then patty thank you Chair

[John Blair MLA]

thank you um following on from that previous conversation given my association with certain private Members bella it should be clear from the difficulty whatsoever with um have predator control in the interest of biodiversity some of us can draw a distinction between um protected biodiversity who predator controls as a last resort or otherwise and um ripping wild mammals apart calling it fauna or recreation and we see that as a complete inconsistency um sticking with us about some of those realities like I can’t have this conversation today without acknowledging the fact that we live in a world and I operate in an assembly where there isn’t a perfect picture I do detect degrees and quite sometimes quite high degrees of um climate denial I sense that there are politicians in a number of legislatures that have been less than flattering about the environmental sector quite frankly and also there’s a political reality and you will know this that it took many months to get an environmental improvement plan through the Northern Ireland Executive um and also the same could be said for the Loch Neagh plan and that is the harsh reality that we operate in sit and be nice to each other all day long but but those are realities that are going to impact on many of the things that you would like to see and many of the things that I would like to see however on a more positive note I do think the Committee has a role to play in trying to uh foster and nurture a better arrangements around that co-design piece and making sure the uh making sure of the involvement of yourselves more often and other NGOs as well um and also continue on a positive note I want to thank you sincerely not only for the work you do but for the assistance your work has given me since I became an MLA um uh particularly at those times all too rare times when there is a functioning assembly we can ask questions of Ministers and um don’t please don’t underestimate the value of your work to those of us who are trying to um pursue uh some some of those important environmental issues um in terms of questions i’m keen to know what we’re probably back here to the co-design piece and consultation um I haven’t heard before to the ever-evolving marine plan that that’s been coming from uh Darius from NIA can I ask what your involvement has been on that um and if there’s ongoing consultation or whether whether that seems to have various stages at the least um have you been involved more than once or was it simply as a public consultation i’m really keen to know and i’m asking that question also in terms of the forthcoming renewed fisheries act

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

yeah um so i’ll i’ll make a start Michelle might want to come in in terms of details of how much we have been involved we may need to come back to um but on the marine landscape we do have some marine expertise um we work largely through the Northern Ireland marine task force that we co-manage with ulster wildlife and that would include you know some uh work with uh commercial fishers but also on policy uh on policy issues so we would contribute um as I say largely through that group into any of the processes that are run by the department um Michelle I don’t know if you’ve got more information about how much we’ve been involved in particular piece of work I can’t um

[Michelle Hill (RSPB)]

because it’s 10 years ago since the consultation it’s one plan that is long long long overdue and I know um that we definitely did submit a response to that John at the time and um I think that there has been some engagement with regards to getting getting the plan published but in terms of how much engagement we’ve actually had on it um we do have a specific officer that deals with that and I need to take that away yeah i’m keen to know if you have an

[John Blair MLA]

opportunity you know there are a number of situations that have changed um the environmental policy department upon um over a period of 10 years that you might need yourself even to refresh it when you went through something previously and therefore it makes common sense to me that even separate to the ongoing co-design that there should be opportunities to consult and input on a more regular basis in such a lengthy process although the preferred option would be that you be continually involved through yeah no no definitely my second question is around this is a regular one to me and you’re talking about the alpine hills and i’m looking out the window here the belfast hills and i’ve some familiarity with both the cave hill on the left and work has been done by woodland trust on the slopes that are towards my constituency although they’re strictly speaking north belfast and then card money hill on the right there which um we have some area in my constituency and I know that some of that is council owned uh woodland trust work there as well there’s certainly been some council owned land there uh through the through the decades and various plans that have never come to fruition and I think there are some walks and observation uh nature observation posts and things they’re not done by council and woodland trust can I ask you what work do you do with councils at any given the amount of parks estate that they have also their involvement in some areas like like carmonial there is there any organised uh consultation with them or ongoing business

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

so if I take the belfast hill specifically and then i’ll ask Michelle to talk about engagement with councils more generally but in the belfast hills the um the the major engos that work there are belfast hills partnership national trust ulster wildlife and also woodland trust as you rightly mentioned if they have some very specific things they might ask us to come and have a look at something specifically but we don’t manage any land up in the belfast hills but we do support them with advice if they if they need it so um that’s kind of the specific bit around the belfast hills do you want to talk more widely about the sort of engagement with local authorities yep certainly

[Michelle Hill (RSPB)]

so obviously um with reform and transfer transfer of local government back in 2015 the planning powers were transferred to them and also the function of community planning as well um and there’s a statutory link between community planning and the ldps so over those years we would engage with the local councils with regards to the ldp uh the local development plan some councils have published um their plan strategy and we respond to all the consultations uh that come out on all on all the local development plans and certainly we did a bit of a roadshow way back as well and rewrite the councils uh so we so we engaged uh across all 11 councils and all the 11 local development plans now that is a huge task because there’s me doing that but it is really important uh role to do uh community planning we’ve been involved in that but we’ve had to move back a little bit because we just don’t have the capacity to service that uh in the same way as we do the ldps um we have been certainly around brexit and post brexit with the local biodiversity officers as well not all the councils have a local biodiversity officer uh we haven’t met now in a number of a number of months but certainly around uh concepts and planning concepts and the effect of brexit and planning and the environment act we did uh we had regular regular meetings uh where we were able to share knowledge and intel and um move uh up the information curve so to speak on that front and we’re also do you want to

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

so yes I know I think as Michelle’s saying a big part of it is resource you know we focus on agricultural land there is an immense amount that can be done on council and government owned land I think for us to get engaged not provide any advice we would need to seek funding we kind of did we have got some funding for species recovery work from esme fairbairn charitable trust but we also broached with them this idea of how could we not just in the urban environment you know or peri-urban but kind of how could we work all better together to manage that land because it’s a really massive opportunity yeah yeah massive opportunity and Michelle one smaller thing that we’re doing at the minute is we’re talking to andrew munich navic council about um guidance on swifts um and uh we’re also we will meet this afternoon with them and with northern ire environment agency and that’s really about getting the guidance on swifts and potentially future whether we want to go down a legislative route to get you know swift bricks and then into all new builds I mean that’s an absolute no-brainer that’s one of the spaces that out of the 28 that’s not you know agriculturally focused um but that is a species that you could bring back you could create nest sites across the whole of you know the built the whole environment owned by council and private homes and everything but um uh but yeah I think we just don’t have the resources for everything um but that is a great opportunity i

[John Blair MLA]

appreciate the guidance I fully understand your resource limitations for the way i’m probably speaking idealistically in terms of the council’s uh rsvb co-working I know there’s some other consultations you can be contacted by local people of course within those council areas as well some i’m happy to have conversations around in the future and i’m asking simply because i’m very conscious that in the council area for example there are large parts of the council estate parks on the banks of the three mile water river on the banks of the six mile water river and on the belfast longshore as well and hazelbank but right beside belfast we’re good

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

yeah and of course there’s a biodiversity duty for those local authorities as well so there is you know something you would need help yeah

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

biodiversity officers do their very best but there sometimes could be a lone wolf in a very big system and you know some of the biodiversity officers in like north down and knowing she she works in another part of council and she seems to be able to bring people together because of the way she works you know but they can they try to do an awful lot but there’s a huge amount of government could do I mean frankly I didn’t say the whole you know the run for storm and species which grassland you know but you know that would send out a message to the people I agree that’s what you know if you want people to do that more in a garden you gotta do it you gotta do it at the heart of government really more up more often at

[John Blair MLA]

least within

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

government like that it’s been an aspiration for us it’s not just about the agricultural piece it’s all that other ground but it’s difficult to get the

[Michelle Hill (RSPB)]

yeah and we would feed into the local biodiversity action plans as well John whenever they’re consulted on that we would we would feed them into that and just to go back to the swifts as well I know that um um antimony navi is leaning on that but we ideally we’d like to see that rolled out across all all councils you know so it’s making the best use

[John Blair MLA]

chaptain thing isn’t that what the council yeah

[Michelle Hill (RSPB)]

so it’s making the best use of the efforts and the work that we do as well that can be uh rolled out at scale you know and and benefit other areas I think I i

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

don’t to sort of prolong this this this conversation I know there’s other questions coming uh but but I think one of the one of the the things that we are doing much more of us working through other partnerships as well um and also trying to provide three other funders not through ourselves but sort of grants for small community groups to do things so nature neighborhoods we’ve got two of those that are in the belfast locale where there was grants provided not by ourselves by by someone else uh but uh through following on from the program that david oppenborough did on wild isles it was sort of a follow-up to that and we’ve just started a project working with the gaa for the greening of clubs uh and you know for what is a relatively low input on our part in terms of a bit of time and expertise then that can reach reach more people because it’s a huge huge network of clubs and volunteers and so I think we’re recognising as well that there are lots of partnerships who already have um you know folks out in the ground who are interested and passionate and that’s been a joy to do some of that

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

thank you that’s it thank you John thank you thanks very much indeed um thank you

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

that’s a very informative a lot of hearing right um but I just asked um there’s there’s the whole issue of climate change and um you know i’m observing a lot of people either very close proximity so a lot of fishermen a lot of um folks are at windfarm um so a lot of the conservation are noticing quite significant changes in the birds where they are most specifically aren’t there now because they’re not traveling for their size so have you done any work around that i’m not going to raise i’ll just write off what was come across here the the um invasive species um predator control I see there with with the earlier old question and that is and do you not find magpies will be a little bit of an issue too and because like they they’re always living off eggs from from uh wee birds as well so what suggests they’re probably there’s a little bit great crows are incredibly difficult to get in on if shooting is your preferred method of getting around them they’re very very difficult but I know from experience that my friends are going to be looking to me well um sorry i’m just I don’t know if you know what i’m doing here

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

yeah yeah yeah good idea okay um

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

now um the other aspect of it is to um they should get in turn your point here but depending why we invent the way you have a perfectly good way that’s done a terrific work I just don’t understand that obvious new people coming in that really don’t know and haven’t learned them from what they learned experiences of others because um there are all sorts of things affecting farming the other day about the inheritance tax and the shaking the uncertainty that creates about investment in the future and the net legacy of debt and all that sort of stuff um so there are there are a plethora of issues there just not climate change or just not what’s what’s going on contemporaneously that’s a clear government policy that will have an impact certainly psychologically among people about how they are likely to invest so therefore one off one on and get in turn your point one off one on things by government isn’t going to do it but it has to be a consistent approach there for those that uh that policy is a consistent and an on-going farming for nature thing and then I want to get one final thing uh the invasive species this is my own personal observations um so it’s nice to hear about your observations how many around the the introduction of buzzards to the environment how that’s panning out and how that’s maybe affecting the control of other animals and other birds especially as I saw them happen

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

okay do you want to take buzzards and magpie and i’ll take…

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

well I can take shortstop as well

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

okay, yeah go for it

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

So the first one about the lough yeah I mean if there’s a paid stand-in on the what’s happening with the diving ducks on the lough and the issues where um there is you can’t really tell you all the answers but one of the things is because of climate change um normally what happens if it’s colder further north the birds come to us and yeah because it’s milder now you’re getting shortstopping so that they’re actually staying closer to home so that’s one of the reasons probably that you are seeing a decline but obviously too what we’re seeing when water quality is going to you know produces toxins it’s going to affect the aquatic invertebrates it’s going to move up the food chain and then you’re seeing also you know so many things around the lough in terms of that we all know about the water quality issues but you know loss of habitat development continue to kind of develop around the lough um in terms of magpies we have to be we do do the science on it and I know you can say it’s like when you see magpies in your garden and you think oh they’re very small garden birds um there there isn’t really evidence that they may develop the same absolutely it’s not the case they take the curly eggs but the when we did the work on them we find the great crows and foxes and we are seeing a response to that so we have to kind of go on that and that that we we only can control things where we find that we have the evidence for it so I know it might you might say an odd bird but having an overall impact is information there in terms of buzzards they’re not an introduced species they are a native species that was once knocked back way down because of persecution and you know use of illegal chemicals as well so when they started to ban the use of those chemicals we started to see an increase in buzzards so we’re all you’re simply saying is buzzards returning to what levels they should be at um buzzards are least concern for us in terms of they will they are current feeders but absolutely will take rabbits and they will occasionally take other things but they’re quite a big slow raptor they’re not built for they’re not they’re not they’re not they’re not locally to take small birds quite unusual but they will take current and they definitely won’t take rabbits um and small things but they are a native species so they’re not just yeah it’s just because they’ve been they were almost yeah persecuted to extinction really yeah um and then it started to come back I personally think that’s what happened so all right great

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

they’re happy to see you lovely and listen to you but I can see you’re something so different but um then the other issue of the invasive species what do you call invasive species i’m speaking from

[Ms Anne-Marie McDevitt (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

yeah well there’s two kind of things invasive species things that have never been here so things like the zebra mussel and mackerel yeah you know white claw crayfish and all those kinds of things those are those have never been here they’re brought in from you know from the continents and then you have um species that are invasive that are native but they’re still invasive so raffles for the example rats might be native but they were never native to raffles so they’re invasive because all those offshore islands were just too far away from land to have those species on them so you have to kind of control them so that’s not too confusing there’s the invasive species that are never been here and then there’s the invasive species then there’s some native species which can be invasive in some places yeah but we’re talking most different invasive species the like the halloween balsam that pink flower that’s now kind of everywhere um some of the things I mentioned the great squirrel being a prime example yeah yeah yeah and then they upset all the bats yeah yeah or they

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

bring in disease yeah um or they out uh they eat out of house and home the native species so they outcompete them

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

then the importance is for consistency only for support for farming practices yeah yeah

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

i mean we would we would really agree without support for consistency of funding um for farming practices um and I think you know the schemes can always improve we’re always learning all the time so you know we should take from the best and prove the things that need to be improved rather than standing still one of the things that we have long since called for has been um a fair and planned or a just transition that sometimes gets called um to more you know so that farmers are supported to be more sustainable um and farm in a nature really really nature friendly way and that that is kind of optimised and in the thinking so that you get that sort of transition towards a longer term you know sustainable way of farming in harmony um with nature and you know we think there could be not only funding put towards that but there could also be you know a treasury set its mind to it some sort of um you know tax relief from the farms that really commit to doing that so it’s you know there are various um various signals in that but you know we we really remain totally committed to supporting farmers to produce uh food and good quality food in harmony with nature and we think that you know that transition is um sorely sorely needed and we will we will we’ve called for that a lot

[Patsy McGlone MLA]

thanks very much indeed for your time

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

thank you for your presentation and for being so willing to take so many questions and you can see there’s a real interest there thank you from Members it was really informative um I believe there’s an opportunity after

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

there is absolutely an opportunity to have a look yeah have a look

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

and and for a chat over a sandwich and a cup of tea yeah yeah thank you so much for your thank you

[Ms Joanne Sherwood (Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (NI))]

thank you it’s been lovely to see you all thank you for your time

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

Members agenda item nine is correspondence I refer you to correspondence through the 7th of february page 165 of the pact from mark durkan mla announcing the launch of the public consultation first private Members bill which is called the environment and nature restoration bill which is actually probably very useful given some of the content that we had from our spb there we consider advanced notification this last week any comments to make on that content to note no thank you Members are prior to 31st supported examiner statute rules to the 7th february 2025 pages 166 to 175 of the pact report refers to the following srs of relevance to the Committee subject to the draft affirmative resolution procedures draft sr the waste fees charges amendment regulations on our 2025 subject to negative resolution is the sr 25 11 the animals identification record movement and enforcement amendment regulations 2025 the report drew this sr to the attention of the assembly on the grounds that it was led in breach of the 21 day ruling however the ESR was content with the department’s explanation for the breach to any Members of any comments you can tend to note nope Members are referred to series of emails page 176 to 180 of the pack that the Committee has been copied into between mac waste limited and nia waste regulation unit regarding the hazmat has has waste and back to my fire service days as well as waste query and mac we are seeking clarification confirmation from the department that environmental legislation has been followed any comments or this is a live matter so I imagine that they’re content to note that Members are referred to correspondence page 31 to 33 of the table of papers date 11 february from the department regarding a minor amendment to the agricultural student fees regulations as a consequence of the introduction of the education scotland bill this amendment does not impact in any way on the interpretation or application of the agricultural student fees regulation Members this was a very minor change to their legislation Minister muir has informed the scottish government cabinet secretary for education and skills of his agreement in principle to the drafting of section 104 order making the consequential amendments to the agriculture agriculture student fee regulations the section 104 order is a tailor-made westminster affirmative mechanism to use powers across the uk jurisdictions where scottish legislation has a cross-border dimension Members have any comments so you can tend to note thank you agenda item 11 forward work plan draft forward program can be found table papers page 35 37 on last week’s forward work plan there were two sl ones included for the meeting of the 27th february sl1 in fishing amendment regulations 2025 in the sl1 the environmental protection disposal of polychlorinated biphenyls and other dangerous substances amendment regulations 2024 both will still require executive approval and will come before us due course any comments you uh can we agree the forward work plan as published thank you Members any other business okay date and time of the next meeting is tuesday 20 february 2025 in parliament at 10 a.m the meeting is now adjourned

[Dr Janice Thompson (Committee Clerk)]

chairman last week we have an extra one

[Robbie Butler MLA (Chairperson)]

unless we have an extra one we’re definitely